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The Michigan Messenger going forward

By Staff Report | 11.16.11

I am writing today to announce the closure of the Michigan Messenger. After four years of operation in Michigan, the board of the American Independent News Network, has decided to shift publication of its news into a single site, The American Independent at Americanindependent.com. This is part of a shift in strategy, towards new forms [...]

Colorado-based abstinence program provided false and misleading information to Michigan students

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By Todd A. Heywood | 11.16.11

An abstinence-only presentation provided to numerous school districts in Calhoun and Eaton Counties in October of this year provided false and misleading information to students about HIV, experts allege.

Class action lawsuit filed against MERS over unpaid taxes

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By Todd A. Heywood | 11.15.11

Two county registers of deeds filed a class action lawsuit Monday on behalf of Michigan’s 83 counties alleging that the Mortgage Electronic Registration Services owes millions of dollars in property title transfer taxes.

Schuette fights important mercury regulations

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By Eartha Jane Melzer | 11.14.11

Despite evidence of the impact of mercury on children and public health, Michigan Attorney General Bill Schuette last month joined with 24 other state attorneys general in filing a lawsuit to scuttle new EPA regulations that would reduce mercury emissions from power plants.

MSU basketball players accused of sexual assault

By Todd A. Heywood | 09.29.10 | 1:00 pm

EAST LANSING — Documents obtained by Michigan Messenger show two high-profile Michigan State University basketball players have been accused of committing sexual assault on campus in August. Despite the allegations, prosecutors have declined to take up the case, and the victim disputes the reasons offered for not bringing charges.

The heavily redacted police report released by Ingham County Prosecutor Stuart Dunnings III alleges the two team members took turns assaulting an unidentified woman for nearly an hour in their Wonders Hall dormitory room late on Aug. 29 and into Aug. 30.

The police report indicates that one of the two players corroborated the victim’s story in his statement to police. Although the MSU Police Department forwarded the report to the prosecutor’s office with a recommendation that the men be charged with Criminal Sexual Conduct 1 — the most serious level of sexual assault under state law — Dunnings has declined to prosecute the case.

In a statement dated Sept. 14 and released on Friday, Dunnings says charging a criminal sexual conduct case “requires the element of force and/or coercion.” He said numerous prosecutors of both genders reviewed the case report and “none could find any of these necessary elements.” The police report and statements by the victim suggest otherwise.

Michigan Messenger is not naming the players because they have not been arrested or charged with a crime. The names have been confirmed by law enforcement and other sources, as well as Dunnings, who released the police report after Messenger filed a Freedom of Information Act request citing the names of the accused. Messenger does not report the names of sexual assault victims without their consent.

‘What felt like forever’

According to the five-page victim’s statement in the police report, the victim had attended a Wonders Hall orientation meeting and had noticed the basketball players there. She then went room to room with friends and had several drinks. At about 11 p.m. she ran into the accused in the lobby of the dorm and introduced herself to them.

She agreed to go back to the players’ room after a conversation with the two.

Once in the room, the three started playing basketball using a mini-hoop. When the victim missed a basket, one of the men told her she had to remove an article of clothing. The victim agreed and removed her t-shirt because she had a tank top on underneath.

At this point, the victim says, the players began to deliberately miss baskets until they were stripped “completely naked.” One of the men allegedly blocked the doorway to the room, while the other “cornered” the victim in the room.

“[The victim] explained to [detectives] that the body language of [the players] suggested she was not free to leave,” the report says. “[Redacted] was blocking any escape path to the exit of the dorm room. [The victim] stated that after [redacted] approached the door he turned the lights in the room off and the room went completely dark. At this point, the sexual assault began.”

The victim told police the players penetrated her in various positions. The victim told detectives the players allegedly asked her “how does that feel?” and “how do you want it?” The victim says she told the players she didn’t want it and gave “other indicators she was not a willing participant.”

The victim told police that the players pinned her down, but at one point she freed her arms momentarily and struck one of the players in the face. The player was on top of her and in response to her hitting him, he allegedly said, “Don’t. Just relax. C’mon,” as he continued to assault her, the report says.

Toward the end of the alleged assault, a suite mate attempted to enter the room through the adjoining bathroom. One of the players reportedly got up, went to the door and told the person who tried to enter, “It’s OK, man, get out of here.” The door was promptly closed.

MSU detectives interviewed the suite mate on Sept. 2. He said he heard a woman “moaning” and said it sounded like she was having sex “and was not in any trouble.”

Later one of the players reportedly entered the suite mate’s room and told him, “We got this girl,” “She’s from the dorm,” and “We both had sex with her.”

Judge issues search warrant

Detectives and officers from the MSU police department executed a search warrant signed by East Lansing District Court Judge Richard Ball at 12:30 a.m. on Aug. 31 in the players’ dorm room. Officials seized DNA and fiber evidence, clothing, and used condoms among other items, records show.

The affidavit and supporting information used by detectives to get the warrant was not released under the Freedom of Information Act request.

In the report, Detective Sgt. Maureen Kennedy and Detective Nicole Simi say that when they read the warrant to the players, one of them was “smirking.” The players were then separated and one of them was cooperative, telling detectives, “Yeah, I know why you’re here,” and “I’m gonna tell you what happened.”

The player also reportedly told detectives he knew he did not have to say anything, “but I want to give my side of the story.”

The other player declined to give a statement to police.

Player collaborates victim’s statements

During his interview with detectives, the one player who volunteered a statement corroborated much of the victim’s statement, the report shows. He told investigators that when it was clear from the victim’s statements that she did not want to have sex, he stopped. However, the other player continued “despite her reluctance and statements that she did not want to continue.” The victim confirms that player’s account.

The player told detectives he was concerned “over the girl’s reaction to the circumstances,” noting she was “timid” and “not aggressive.” The player then admitted to detectives that he understood how the woman believed she was not welcome to leave the room, in part because she kept referencing that the two were “bigger” than her.

The player then said a second time that he stopped when she said to, but the other player “coaxed” her into continuing the sexual activity.

The player told detectives that he and the other player should apologize because he felt the two had “disrespected” the woman.

The decision not to prosecute

Dunnings said the case was reviewed by at least two female prosecutors in his office. He said the case was reviewed by Debra Rousseau Bouck, who reviews all criminal sexual conduct cases for the county’ and either Lisa McCormick, chief assistant prosecutor in the Ingham County Prosecutor’s Office; or Catherine Emerson, deputy chief assistant prosecutor. He said it was possible both Emerson and McCormick reviewed the case, but he was “unsure.”

Dunnings said the determination as to whether or not to prosecute was based in part on information not contained in the police reports — and that the alleged victim agreed that no charges should be filed.

“After reviewing everything with the young lady, this was a mutual decision,” Dunnings said in a phone interview Monday. “She [the victim] fully understood and agreed, is what Ms. Bouck [Ingham County Prosecutor assigned to review sex crimes] related to me.”

But the victim challenged the statements by Dunnings and Bouck.

The woman, who spoke exclusively to Messenger on the condition of her anonymity, said that she met with Bouck two days after the assault. The meeting occurred at Bouck’s downtown Lansing office. The victim says the two MSU detectives who investigated her case accompanied her to the meeting, but Bouck asked them not to come in the room for the discussion.

“It’s really hard to actually get a case to go through because there are twelve jurors and to get them all to see it from my point of view is hard,” the victim says Bouck told her. “Then she said she was going to take a defense approach, she started asking me all these questions.”

The victim says Bouck grilled her about whether or not it was possible the perpetrators thought the activity was consensual, why she didn’t yell and scream and why she didn’t run or try and fight her way out of the room. The victim was reduced to tears by the hypothetical interrogation.

“She just kept going, and I was crying,” the victim said. “I really don’t think she asked me if I wanted to (prosecute).”

Shari Murgittroyd, program director for Michigan State University’s Sexual Assault Program, said she is surprised that prosecutors did not issue arrest warrants in this case. She spoke to Messenger after reviewing the released police report.

“I’m in shock. After hearing what was in the police report, I am amazed charges were not issued,” Murgittroyd said.

Murgittroyd says in her 10-year career dealing with sexual assault, the typical reasons she has often heard to justify not prosecuting — such as the victim blacked out or there is no physical evidence — do not seem to apply in this case.

“You’ve got a great police report with all those statements,” Murgittroyd said. “It’s ideal to have the victim participate in prosecuting a criminal sexual conduct case, but it’s my understanding that it is not necessary.”

The victim says she is unsure about prosecution.

“I worry about what would happen if it didn’t go through and having to deal with all the publicity and everything that goes with pursuing charges,” she said. “But also I am angry. It’s just that everybody looks at them as heroes and they’re so excited for basketball season that [the players] get off without anybody caring. They haven’t even been punished.”

Asked what she would like to see, she tenses the muscles in her face, and chews nervously at her upper lip.

“Just some justice, because right now there’s none,” she says.

Update: You can read the full police report here.

Comments

  • p_e_s

    the worst about this whole thing is how many people side with the dudes in the comments. ahhh….

    • MrBaller24

      why is there an issue for guys siding with guys? there have been no charges filed and no arrests made. Apparently they did nothing wrong. In fact, if no charges are brought up, it pretty much means this girl is lying and is trying to hurt these guys by getting them kicked out of school and costing them their futures for what sounds like a consensual thing gone kinky.

      Alot of us “dudes” have been on this side of a woman's drunken regret and have had to deal with rumors or confrontations with dads or brothers, and some made to the extent of these two “suspects”.

      so forgive us if we have more in common and can sympathize easier with the guys dealing with an embarrassed girl crying “wolf” and trying to blame them for mistaking her advances and flirting as an invitation and not complete repulsion.

      • http://anita-writ-in-water.blogspot.com/ Anitanola

        No, MrBaller24, the fact that no charges are brought up does not mean this girl is lying. The fact that you think these boys' actions were deplorable suggests to me that you don't really think this girl is lying but rather that you think these boys were justified in raping her because “she asked for it.” That is a damnable, evil perpetuation of the rape culture everybody''s children live in today and it won't change until people like you stop defending boys who “behave deplorably” against girls who accuse them of rape. You're wrong and what's more, you know it.

      • Be_Be

        Alot of us “dudes” have been on this side of a woman's drunken regret

        By your own admission about your sexual and marital in later comments, you never have been, actually. (Unless your wife has had sex with you while drunk and later regretted it?)

        Interestingly, not one of the men in my life (my friends, or fiance's friends) has ever complained of “a woman's drunken regret.” Know why? Because they're people who know not to have sex with someone who's drunk!

        so forgive us…for mistaking her advances and flirting as an invitation and not complete repulsion.

        See? Right there, that's more of the problem! This belief that either a woman is completely repulsed, or inviting you to have sex with her! No middle ground! (Even if you were trying to be funny- know what? It's not funny, given how many people really think it isn't rape unless the woman is kicking and screaming to get away.)

        And no, I won't forgive you. As I have said elsewhere here, I want to live in a world with higher standards of consent, and one where men and women are not held to different social standards. I know that despite my best efforts, I may not see that world in my lifetime, but I am unwilling to “forgive” and settle for any less.

      • p_e_s

        Hi Mr. Baller, the issue isn't with guys siding with guys, it's people (who happen to be mostly guys) siding with these two rapists (who happen to be guys).

        Read up on the actual prevalence of false rape charges-they're not as common as men think.

        That “no charges were filed” is precisely what's so upsetting. That people think they did nothing wrong is, again, precisely what's so upsetting. That you call what happened “kinky” is, once again, precisely what's so upsetting.

        Your rape apologia is really saddening… if she was flirting before they got naked and turned off the lights, I assure you she wasn't afterwards, and that's what matters.

        I mean, Jesus Christ, one of the guys even corroborated her story…

      • SunlessNick

        “In fact, if no charges are brought up, it pretty much means this girl is lying”

        So no “innocent until proven guilty” for her, then?

  • allgoodtees

    See my comment above regarding responsibility – I'll give a hint: it's not the women who need the education.

    • MrBaller24

      in what world is it a good idea to go to an over-privileged mans room, by yourself, while you've been drinking and play strip basketball?

      She never attempted to leave, she made that obvious, and her “wanting” to leave was not made obvious to the boys she was flirting with all night.
      *any guy will tell you what she did came across as flirtatious*

      Bad decisions + alcohol + plus not evident signs of resistance = no crime, no charges, no arrests, no trial, no conviction, no story. What it DOES equal is “regret sex that turns into a filed police report to cover her ass and make it look like she wasn't a tramp”.

      not condoning the guys actions, in fact they are deplorable, but according to both the testimony of “the victim” and “one of the suspects”, the only thing one of them did wrong was “finish”. read the report if you disagree with that.

      • http://anita-writ-in-water.blogspot.com/ Anitanola

        Even if she was behaving stupidly, at least one of the boys knew she did not want to have sex and said so. What could have happened is that the other boy could have decided not to rape her, even though she was being stupid, was drunk, was at least partially unclothed and it was within his power to do. This is what could have been done differently. He could have chosen not to rape. Teach that to boys. Teach them not to take advantage of drunk, stupid girls. Do you think that is healthy for the boys? For their character? For their future of dealing honorably with people? Girls can be just as stupid as they like without getting raped. But a rapist will rape when he sees that he can. That is what is wrong with this scene, MrBaller24. Teach the boys, why don't you?

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_7Z42VN5WLOSASRBUAJDOKW2F64 Matthew Lofton

    And I will politely remind you, the DUKE LACROSSE PLAYERS were the only ones to take responsibility for their actions and apologize (well, except for a basically forced apology 1.5 years later from Duke and Nifong during his ethics trial, which he immediately took back 24 hours later) during the whole mess.

    Those bad, bad boys. How DARE they apologize for their actions despite the face they did nothing illegal.

  • http://twitter.com/DSea21 Dan Sears

    Even though the author claims there is considerable collaboration between both descriptions, there does appear to be some discrepancies between the two accounts of the evening. Allow me to piece together the details we have. I'll start with the alleged victim's account:

    -Alleged victim goes from room to room having several drinks
    -She introduces herself to the players and agrees to go back to their room
    -Agrees to play “strip” basketball.
    -One of the players blocks the doorway, while the other corners her. With all available escape routes blocked, one of the players turns off the lights.
    -The alleged victim states that it is at this point the sexual assault began.
    -The alleged victim told police the PLAYERS penetrated her in various positions.

    Let's piece this together with the player's account:

    -He told investigators that when it was clear from the victim’s statements that she did not want to have sex, he stopped.
    -However, the other player continued “despite her reluctance and statements that she did not want to continue.”
    -And this is the important part: “The victim confirms that player’s account.”

    Okay, so let's combine these two accounts. The girl first said the sexual assault began once the lights went out. After that, the players penetrated her from multiple positions. The player stated that once she made it clear that she did not want to have sex, he stopped. The girl confirmed this account.

    If this is true, it means there was consensual sex going on after the lights went out, because it wasn't until after the lights went out that they penetrated her. She confirmed this. I point all of this out to show how there are already holes in the alleged victim's original account. It is easier to see why this makes it difficult for the prosecutors to pursue a conviction. I'm not saying she wasn't raped. I repeat, I'm not saying she wasn't raped. I'm not absolving the men from their actions. I do think, however, that the girl has either changed her story once (given her original account and then her confirmation of the player's somewhat different account) or she has hazy recollections of the evening. Again, this makes it difficult to pursue a conviction or accuse the players of rape, if a rape actually occurred.

  • maryann1221

    MM should have asked victim if she had ever accused any other college athlete of sexual assault….hmmmm, she did at Grand Valley. What does that say about her? And for gosh sake, what did you think was going to happen when you went back to the room to play “strip basketball?” Sounds like “regret sex!”

    • musicahumana

      Because no woman has ever been raped more than once!

  • MrBaller24

    this is not a story, since it reveals no real news. I read the entire police report. Since it is 60% blacked out, it is HARDLY a credible source. This will be a story IF there are charges filed and arrests made. Until then, this is only a slap in the face to the MSU basketball program, which is exactly what I assume is the intention of this story and its “reporter”.

  • MrBaller24

    “innocent until proven guilty”.

    1) This happened a month ago, if there were going to be any arrests or a case, there would have been something by now.

    2) if Izzo felt the there could be anything close to a case made, these “suspects” would have been kicked off the team. No indication to anything like that as of now.

    3) No prosecutors will touch this case a) because of lack of evidence and B) they want to avoid Duke Lacrosse II. (look it up)

    4) this girl is not a “victim” since there is no crime. There are no defendants. There is no case. She is only a “victim” in the opinion of the writer from Michigan Messenger and a police report because she was filing it. (they cant call her the suspect, now can they)

    5) the police are required to write up a report for anything reported as a possible crime. Because there IS a report, does not mean there is a crime. It is NOT the police officers job to recommend prosecution.

    6) the Corroboration of one of the “suspects”, if anything, says the girl started out having sex, and then halfway into the orgy decided she was done. sounds more like marriage than a rape.

    7) everything this girl describes sounds exactly like what goes on all over campus every night: Girl gets drunk (voluntarily), girl goes up to drunk guys dorm, by herself (voluntarily), girl takes clothes off (voluntarily), girl has sex for hours, with 2 guys, in multiple positions with out any signs of rape (marks, bruises, screams, injuries, force).

    8) in my opinion, this sounds like a drunk student regretting the events of a bad decision. No arrests/ prosecution/ conviction = no crime.

    9) if there are arrests, a trial and a conviction, i will change my tune, as i feel anyone convicted of a sexual crime in the court of law should be punished accordingly. But until then, there is no crime, no suspect, no victim, no story.

    Jack Ebling's Take on this story: http://www.webwiseforradio.com/site_files/368/Media/9-29-10_Segment%201.mp3

    A great counter to this “breaking news”: http://isportsweb.com/2010/09/29/michigan-messenger-gossips-about-michigan-state-basketball-players/

    The DUKE LACROSSE scandal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_University_students_rape_accusation_case

    • http://anita-writ-in-water.blogspot.com/ Anitanola

      MrBaller24, are you seriously defending the ridiculous position that a person who commits felonious acts, unless he is prosecuted, did not commit crimes? There are many, many instances, as anyone in law enforcement will tell you, of crimes committed by people the authorities know without a shadow of a doubt are guilty but who are not charged because, given the nature of the evidence, a conviction could not possibly result and an acquittal would preclude any further action even if better evidence appeared later.

      Get your head out of the “dudes gotta stick together” mode because all you are doing is digging the pit of bad logic and rape apology deeper.

  • MrBaller24

    BTW, if every man who has sex as the result of having to convince a woman to have sex with him is guilty of rape, well….. hate to break it to ya, but every man who aint a virgin should be going to jail.

    • Be_Be

      Women don't really want sex, and therefore are the gatekeepers of it, men want nothing but sex, yeah, yeah, yeah…heard that one before.

      Attitudes like yours, sir, are part of the problem. As such, I would believe that it is entirely possible that you have had to convince every woman who has ever screwed you to do so, but I assure you, when I met my the man who is now fiance, no convincing was necessary. 😉

      Not to mention my first serious boyfriend in high school, who was strongly Catholic, which led to me finding myself in the unusual (and, looking back on it, shameful) position of ME pressuring HIM for sex!

      And, come to think of it, every man in between. Call me an ardent feminist, but I guess I tend to screw men who find it important that I actually WANT to screw them.

      Anyhoo, no one is saying that “convincing” a woman to have sex is rape. (And if someone did, I missed it.) However, this:

      The player was on top of her and in response to her hitting him, he allegedly said, “Don’t. Just relax. C’mon,”

      would not count as convincing, and throws a bit of suspicion on the later statement:

      The player then said a second time that he stopped when she said to, but the other player “coaxed” her into continuing the sexual activity.

      If a woman were truly CONVINCED, it would look like affirmative consent, not just compliance.

      • MrBaller24

        unfortunately for you, your case holds no water. My wife and i were both Catholic virgins on our wedding night. You have no room no challenge my morals.

        And i can attest, that sometimes when i am in the mood and my wife isnt, or when she is in the mood and i am not (which is rare), we comply to eachothers needs. All of my married friends encounter the same thing. And if you are as lucky as me to stay married to the person you love for a long time, you will inevitably encounter such a situation.

        to preach to me that every non-rape sexual act in the history of mankind has been the result of two people of equal eagerness is beyond ridiculousness.

        by your, and many of your fellow sympathizers opinions, you raped your HS boyfriend.

        the quote:
        “B Grace [Moderator] 1 day ago in reply to acdc392333
        In fact she DID say no and then was coerced into having sex. She replied multiple times that she did not want to have sex.”

        “If a woman were truly CONVINCED, it would look like affirmative consent, not just compliance. ” – i agree, however i dont think the debate is on TRULY CONVINCED or AFFIRMATIVE CONSENT.

        the basis of the alleged charges being not brought up hinges on the fact that she didnt present AFFIRMATIVE DIS-CONSENT. at least that is how it appears to me.

        one again, i am not condoning this situation at all, but nothing about this entire situation lends itself to a clear cut rape charge in the effect that she was alone, in their bedroom, undressed and intoxicated. Sounds like she was trying to bait them.

        • MrBaller24

          and if you disagree with my understanding of the situation. Please, feel free to tell me what she was doing in a room with two high-profile men, intoxicated, by herself, late in the evening, playing strip basketball, making no attempt to stay dressed, leave or call for help?

          doesnt add up to a rape case, but made you can persuade me to think otherwise.

          • http://anita-writ-in-water.blogspot.com/ Anitanola

            Don't you think it is ingenuous to claim that what the boy needs to do is make a video of the occasion. So you're not only not up for teaching the boys not to rape drunk women but you want to teach them to videotape it! They'll make their own porn and have a very handy blackmail video. What next?

        • Be_Be

          by your, and many of your fellow sympathizers opinions, you raped your HS boyfriend.

          Did you even read my comment?

          This is a quote: “no one is saying that “convincing” a woman to have sex is rape. (And if someone did, I missed it.)”

          (Also, whatever your position on “convincing” equaling or not equaling rape, he and I never did the deed. Just so you can put your righteous horror on his behalf to rest.)

          My wife and i were both Catholic virgins on our wedding night. You have no room no challenge my morals.

          You aren't seriously arguing that this gives you some sort of moral superiority, are you? If so, you'll have to excuse me a moment while I roll around on the floor laughing. It's terribly funny (and sad, actually) when people think an incidental practice of their religion makes them somehow better than everyone else. Oh, oh! By the way! I don't eat meat! You have no room to challenge my morals! HA!

          Okay, okay, I'm done now with that now.

          PS- Having been with my current partner for over five years now, I am certainly familiar with the situation where one of us wants sex and the other doesn't. We have a number of ways of dealing with it, but NONE of them look like “comply(ing) to each others needs.” But hey, like I said, enthusiastic consent is important to us, and neither one of us thinks of ourselves as having any right to the others body whenever we please, even though we have agreed to only share our bodies with each other. I mean, we “comply to each others needs” sometimes on mundane stuff, like household chores, but neither of us would ever want something as awesome as sex to be anything like a chore.

  • Ghede

    The only people in the world who can stop rape are the ones who intended to rape in the first place. Because they are ultimately the ones who decide if a rape happens or not.

    The best the rest of us can do is try to avoid it.

    But if you want to talk about prevention, I suggest you start by talking to those who would commit rape first.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_XIKH3UY3FAU6UOMPKOP4KXTNOU Konstantin Koverchenko

    It's a loaded topic with a lot of baggage and all of the things that tend to make people lose their heads: athletes running wild, booze, sex, consent, prosecutorial misconduct. But let's chill out and see what this article is actually saying:

    1. The woman's statement (if we assume it is completely true) is unambiguously rape. Not because they convinced her to have sex (as “convincing” someone to have sex is not a crime unless coercion is involved, coercion being defined here as a direct or implied threat or blackmail), not because of coercion (as this article doesn't mention coercion), but because she said “no” at some point and that “no” was disregarded. We don't know if she initially gave some form of consent, we don't know how drunk she was so we don't know if she was even qualified to give consent. We do know, however, that she told them to stop. So (again, assuming her statement is completely true) it was clearly some type of criminal sexual conduct.

    2. The man who made the statement disagrees. This article doesn't give his statement, so it's hard to exactly confirm or dispute what he said. But those of you saying that the guy “confessed” should reread the article. The man expressed remorse for “disrespecting” the girl, which could be his deliberate euphemism for rape, or it could be his admission to doing something he finds morally wrong but not illegal. If we assume he is being completely truthful, we are left with a situation where he could be legally guilty of rape. But this is dependent largely on evidentiary rules in the jurisdiction. In some jurisdictions, the defendant's perception of what he or she is doing is relevant. An example would be if a guy pulls a gun on another guy. Seeing this, I intervene and wrestle the gun away and shoot him. After the fact, I find out this guy I shot was an undercover cop. In many jurisdictions, I would not be prosecuted for my sincerely-held-but-also-incorrect perception that I was acting in defense of others (or I would be allowed to use my mistaken perception as evidence in my defense). If the accused in this case genuinely believes he had consent, it might make him legally less culpable.

    3. We don't know why the prosecutor has declined (so far) to charge the two men. It could be that he doubts the accuser's story. It could be that he believes the accuser but doubts he could win the case. It could be that he believes the accuser, but doesn't want to prosecute because he's a bad person. It could be that he is getting his ducks in a row, gathering more evidence to make for a better case. It could be that he is being very careful with his actions and waiting until he has a better idea of what happened. My vote is with the last guess, and here's why: If the Duke scandal taught us anything, it's that DAs are confronted with tremendous pressure from all sides when confronted with loaded cases like this. If he gives into pressure to file charges immediately, he runs the risk of letting two rapists go free due to lack of evidence if they're actually guilty, of smearing two (potentially) innocent men if they're not guilty, and of losing his job and credibility in either case. If he refuses to file charges or name the accused, he runs the risk of further victimizing the victim if she's telling the truth, of allowing two rapists to walk the streets if they're actually guilty, and of losing his job and credibility again. If he waits until the picture becomes clearer, he runs the risk of pissing off everyone by being noncommittal, of waiting and waiting while the picture becomes no clearer, and of (yet again) losing his job and credibility.

    I don't envy his position. So we don't know about any of his potential biases and we shouldn't make any accusations of incompetence or misconduct. Not yet, at least. We can probably guess, however, that he (like anyone) doesn't like being under the microscope. The Duke DA was under the microscope and he cracked, breaking the law and his professional code of ethics to get some people off his back. If the Lansing DA could find an ethical way to remove himself from this position, he probably would have done it by now. Let's try not to pressure him into finding an unethical way to cover his ass.

    In other words, let's try not to speculate too much. This article provides a woefully incomplete story. Let's not give the accuser nor the accused any automatic credibility. Let's just wait and hope for better reporting. Can we agree?

    • http://twitter.com/DSea21 Dan Sears

      Where was this rational point of view earlier? Haha. As much as I appreciate your comments, if you've read the rest of the posts, you've realized that people are using this as a forum to springboard several other issues related to rape and consent in general. Who cares about just this case? LoL. Most of the people here that asserted any logic in reading this article can clearly see it was written with a slanted bias and as you say, “woefully incomplete.” However, if any of her statements in this article were accurate, I believe I've given a pretty good argument for why her account lacks credibility. I won't rehash that argument here, but I did post it in the comments above.

      • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_XIKH3UY3FAU6UOMPKOP4KXTNOU Konstantin Koverchenko

        After reading your response and having a look at just how long my post is, I feel a bit silly for taking the time to write it. 🙂

        We're casting our pearls before swine!

        • http://anita-writ-in-water.blogspot.com/ Anitanola

          Konstantin Koverchenko, thank you for your comment.

          • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_XIKH3UY3FAU6UOMPKOP4KXTNOU Konstantin Koverchenko

            Glad you liked it. Truthfully, I didn't expect anyone to read it. I was expecting a few “tl;dr”s.

          • http://anita-writ-in-water.blogspot.com/ Anitanola

            In threads like this it is always good to see a well reasoned comment such as yours is.

            I've been thinking about the markedly different approach and focus of women and men in threads like this. I think women focus on the cultural and social dialog because almost inevitably there is no fairness possible for the woman who has already been traumatized by her experience at the hands of the accused as well as having suffered a greater or lesser degree of trauma from the entire reporting and questioning ordeal at the hands of the law. That cannot be rectified. It's too late.

            Women want the men who are now speaking out, all very concerned for fairness to recognize this preexisting, pervasive imbalance. Want them to speak first to the boys who are opportunistic at best and often abusive and tell them to stop going after sex with stupid, drunk girls, stop taking advantage, stop coercing friends and strangers.

            If men worked as hard to create fairness in the cultural and social arena as they do to seek fairness in the law, we could understand each other. We could work together. We don't want innocent boys ruined. We want men to stop being silent about rape, abuse, oppression, intimidation, coercion and violence against women.

            The call always comes, even from the best of the men, for the women to be less stupid, less careless, even less interested in sex. Before that advice is trotted out, I would like to hear men give the same advice to the boys who are committing the social and cultural injustices against women. Then you can scold the stupid, drunk girls, if you think that is your place.

            This is often our position. The girl has already been hurt. There is no way to make that right. It's already too late for fairness for her. It just makes us really angry for every single guy, believing that only now has the issue of fairness arisen, to start his reaction by saying, don't blame this guy, this fine student, ball player, team member. Blame that stupid, drunk girl, spoken in so many words, often with offensive misogynistic epithets. (Of course I am not saying you do this, I am speaking of the dozens of voices in the dozens of threads like this every year.)

            We are fighting the cultural and social battle that must be fought and we feel men are dodging their responsibility to fight for fairness in society by seeing only the legal issue thus excusing themselves too easily. A better society cannot be achieved by women alone.

          • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_XIKH3UY3FAU6UOMPKOP4KXTNOU Konstantin Koverchenko

            Excellent point. Though I think to be fair in our analysis we should compare the best people on one side to the best people on the other side (and, of course, the worst with the worst). In my opinion, being fair-minded in this situation would require:
            – not making the presumption that a specific rape accusation is a lie, since it has been shown that most accusations are not made up. The statistics vary, but I've never seen one over ten percent.
            – not making the presumption that, because less than 10% of rape accusations are fabrications, a specific rape accusation must be true.
            – not blaming a victim (in a moral sense) for a rape. The moral blame lies solely with the rapist. The purpose of this, of course, is to take a step towards destigmatizing the victim.
            – acknowledging a practical necessity for people to protect themselves from rapists. The purpose of this is to protect others from being victimized. This one is tricky, because it has the potential to sound a bit insensitive to a victim. However (my personal feelings here, so take them with a grain of salt), being a little insensitive to one victim is probably better than being very sensitive to two victims.
            – making very clear to everyone in society the legal definition and moral unacceptability of rape.

            I may have left something out, but I think this is the least a person must do to be considered fair-minded.

            The main problem I see with your perspective (if I understand you correctly) is that making a specific rape into a gender issue ultimately interferes with justice for those actually involved in the story. A rape accusation pushes all the wrong buttons. With many people, it leads to knee-jerk reactions in defense on one's own sex and hostility towards the opposite. Thankfully, we've come a long way from the bad old days, when rape was considered a crime against a woman's father or husband, when we didn't shield victims from public humiliation, when we didn't require victims resist with all of their strength for their attack to be considered criminal. But the pendulum has swung. Or maybe a better metaphor would be with multiple pendulums representing fairness in our legal system and social justice, some of them swung too far in one direction or another and others hovering precariously in just the right spot.

            Sorry, I'm taking a while to reach my point. But here it is: When we take a specific rape allegation and turn it into a gender issue, the accuser and the accused become tools for a social agenda. It's unfair for a victim to become further victimized by a society and legal system that encourages (or fails to discourage) patriarchy and misogyny. It's further unfair for a person accused of rape to have to fight against a tide of righteous feminist anger and a legal system that takes away some of his/her legal protections afforded to people accused of other violent crimes in the name of sensitivity. Is it fair for a woman's sexual history or manner of dress or level of physical resistance to be legally relevant? No. Is it fair for a man to become a pariah after being accused of rape (but before being tried and convicted) by someone who can hide in anonymity? No. But these are the things that happen when the social dialog enters the courtroom. It's pure and silly tribalism.

            So, yes, I do believe that we should ignore the gender issues when we are in the courtroom. In the interest of legal fairness and social justice, these issues ought to be discussed in other places (and, ideally, not just when something bad happens). Much like we ought to have had a plan in place for a major terrorist attack before 2001, we ought to be discussing (and do discuss, to some extent) these issues before they become issues. Some might say that ignoring the social issues is a male luxury that I possess and women do not, but I'd disagree. The limitations I suggest are sufficiently small that the greater societal issues can be fairly discussed in any other time and place, probably with a net gain in justice and safety and happiness for all.

            I'd agree that we ought to teach everyone (especially men) about the law (especially regarding consent) so that the common misconceptions that lead to rape are less likely to occur. But I think we already do. I don't know when and where you grew up, so I don't know if they hammered on the same points as they did with me, but I remember (starting in middle school and continuing throughout my education and not stopping until I graduated from university) everyone who addressed the issue of sex to also addressed the issue of rape and consent (and in very unambiguous terms). So, if my case is to be thought of as typical, men of my generation (I was born in 1985) have all of the education they need to be clear on what is acceptable and what is not.

            Now, whether or not the rest of our culture affirms or contradicts the things we are taught in school is a different issue. Do you see any bits of our cultural institutions or prevailing attitudes that you feel enable rape or rapists?

          • http://anita-writ-in-water.blogspot.com/ Anitanola

            “Do you see any bits of our cultural institutions or prevailing attitudes that you feel enable rape or rapists?”

            Yes. For instance this is a place to start. It's a feminist site but you are an intelligent person and fully half of the people in the world are women. Fairness would suggest you read what they have to say. An equally thoughtful series of posts concerns male privilege which, perhaps contrary to your impression, still exists.

            Thank you for engaging in thought about this. I am encouraged by the willingness of many young people to look squarely at these topics. Yes, we've come a long way in my lifetime (I was born in 1934) and I have witnessed change but in many ways women today are more vulnerable than ever as men perceive any loss of privilege as unfairness and as people generally believe women are not discriminated against. It should never happen that a young man is falsely accused but that is no more important than the need to rid our society of violence against women, sexual abuse, and discrimination in the workplace.

          • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_XIKH3UY3FAU6UOMPKOP4KXTNOU Konstantin Koverchenko

            My question wasn't meant as a challenge. I've just heard several people talk about “rape culture” and was curious as to your take on it.

      • http://anita-writ-in-water.blogspot.com/ Anitanola

        Dan Sears, you did not make a pretty good argument that her statement lacks credibility. Whether or not the case can be made in court, which is likely the most important factor in a decision to prosecute, taking advantage of a woman who is drunk, and therefore impaired, actually is rape. As long as men tell one another that it is permissible to take advantage of a woman who is vulnerable, they will continue to rape and believe themselves innocent of the crime.

        • http://twitter.com/DSea21 Dan Sears

          Again, I think you missed the point of my argument. She originally said the sexual assault began once they penetrated her after the light went out. She then later confirmed the player's account of the evening, which stated that there was consensual sex going on and it wasn't until some time after this point that the alleged victim protested. He said he stopped once she protested. Obviously, anything done after her protest would be considered rape. However, with the changing of her story and the discrepancies between the two accounts, it would make it difficult to pursue legal action. Again, I'm not saying the players are not guilty. I am only pointing at the difficulty in convicting them. I'll just be blunt from now on with my position: Raping impaired, drunk women is a no-no. Raping any woman is a no-no. Changing your account of the evening is a no-no (because defense attorneys will prey on her hazy recollections).

  • ebrayton

    Folks, I've had to delete about 150 comments out of this thread and I've had enough. lmael, Jacob Parsky and a couple of others, your comments will be automatically deleted from this point on. You will not be allowed to behave like 13 year olds on this site. Keep your comments respectful and substantive, please.

    • lmael

      Thanks for sharing one side of the story. Keep up the fabulous work.

      Idiot.

    • lmael

      But I, ebrayton, am allowed to act like a 13 year old and censor those who disagree with the concept of guilty before innocent and the sharing of only one side of the story.

      Furthermore, I will allow posts, in flaming nature, of those that DO agree with my viewpoints to remain in full.

    • lmael

      http://spartannation.com/?p=14330

      statement from prosecutor.

    • theskeptic4u

      Not sure how anyone will EVER take your website seriously after this fiasco –

      As Prosecutor, I have prosecuted numerous prominent persons – including police officers, attorneys and athletes. In each instance, I believe that our office has handled the case regardless of status, and shown neither favor nor prejudice to any person.

      I declined to prosecute a recent incident that occurred on the MSU campus. I would like to explain the reasoning behind this decision.

      The Assistant Prosecutor (Debra Bouck) who initially screened this case met with the woman who reported the incident. At this point, the case was still under review. Ms. Bouck explained the legal process. As is the standard practice of this office, Ms. Bouck also questioned the Complainant regarding specific details of the incident, which were not covered in the police interview. This was done so that the young woman would understand the types of questions that she would be called to answer should the matter go to court, and also because we need to know the answers to those questions in evaluating the case.

      Following this interview, Ms. Bouck indicated to the young woman that she still needed for the police to speak with a potential witness before any final decision was made. Following that further investigation, Ms. Bouck called her to indicate that no charges would be filed. Ms. Bouck also indicated the rationale for her decision and that the young woman could come in to meet with her to discuss this matter. Ms. Bouck then reviewed the case with Chief Assistant Prosecutor Lisa McCormick, who agreed with the decision.


      There have been numerous reports that indicate that one of the two men “corroborated” the story told by the woman. However, the prosecutors who reviewed this case examined not only the police report, but also the actual interview of one of the men. I have attached transcripts of the police interview with one of the accused men. You can see from the transcript of the interview with the man that he did not, in fact, corroborate the facts necessary to substantiate a criminal sexual assault charge.

      Based on our review of all of the materials, including the police report, actual interviews, and the specific details that were elicited directly from the Complainant, our office reached the conclusion that no crime had been committed. We therefore made the decision to decline to bring charges against the two young men.

      http://spartannation.com/?p=14330

    • Mich_Mess

      Mr. Brayton,

      You should delete the entire “story”. Anonymous quotes don't belong in real journalism. A police report is one person's opinion-not factual information. Admit it, Heywood was trying to make a name for himself and the MM by grinding an axe against athletes. 1600 words and he still gets an F. It's time for you guys to take some journalism classes.

  • http://twitter.com/strangedesire Stephanie Laskowski

    I see we have a bunch of victim blamers and rape sympathizers up in this post!!

    Whether or not this story is true, NO means NO, no matter WHAT was happening up to the point of intercourse.
    People are acting like she consented to having sex just because she was drunk, agreed to go to their room, played a game of strip basketball, and didn't get offended when they were both naked.

  • Logical11

    The part of the story that doesn't make any sense to me…

    Toward the end of the alleged assault, a suite mate attempted to enter the room through the adjoining bathroom. One of the players reportedly got up, went to the door and told the person who tried to enter, “It’s OK, man, get out of here.” The door was promptly closed.

    MSU detectives interviewed the suite mate on Sept. 2. He said he heard a woman “moaning” and said it sounded like she was having sex “and was not in any trouble.”

    Why would the suite mate try to enter the room if the only sound he heard was moaning from people having sex? If I heard my suite mate having sex, I would not try to enter the room unless it sounded like someone needed help. I would instead turn the TV on or put on some music to drown out the sex moans. He states the sounds did not sound like anyone was in trouble, so why try to enter the room? Something doesn't add up.

    • Mich_Mess

      Great point. The State News and City Pulse called out the Michigan Messenger for other problems with their article.

  • mzjonez

    This entire discussion is stupid. Okay lets recap. She was intoxicated, but not too intoxicated to remember that she agreed to go to the room and play strip basketball. Next, she noticed that not one, but BOTH of these men missed shots until they were completely naked…and she stayed. Next, they began to “assault” her. She only stated above that she took of her shirt…well that's a lie, how did they penetrate then? It doesn't say that they forced the rest of her clothing off. This is stupid. She made an ass of herself, and now she's embarrased (rightfully so), however, stupid decision making does not equal rape. I keep hearing this “freeze” scenario, she didn't freeze when she went to their room or took off her clothes….It makes me laugh that people are even entertaining this ignorance. I was once a resident of South Complex at MSU, (Wilson, Wonder, Case and Holden Hall), and there doors don't even reach the floor. You can hear EVERYTHING outside of the door. This sounds just like Kobe Bryant and the maid at the hotel. It really bothers me that these whores make asses of themselves and then yell rape because they realize that their indescretions are not secret. Having been a victim of rape while at MSU, I can assure you that there was no misunderstandings on my feeling about what happened to me. When you start having sex with someone, it's not rape because you fell stupid afterword. When you don't want to have sex, then you say no from the start. You can't just change your mind while in the act middle and expect that someone is gonna be punished. Lastly, if he told her to relax…THAT WAS HER GREEN LIGHT TO SAY NO. I DON'T WANT TO RELAX, I WANT TO LEAVE, however, that didn't happen. She said okay and kept on scrumpin… That's poor decision making. Stop pressing the issue about her being too intoxicated. She wasn't too intoxicated to remember every detail of her evening. She also stated that their stature was intimidating, but it wasn't too intimidating for her to follow them both up to their room. She said she felt like she couldn't leave…well how do you know if you don't try? They aren't telepathic. Come on people, lets use our common sense here.

  • Anonymous

    As a victim of assault that occurred in East Lansing from a man attacking me, under Dunnings prosecution, I know that there is NO WAY that they would dismiss this case IF there was evidence showing that they were guilty. Also, it would not be dismissed unless she DID actually agree to it. I wasn’t going to press charges in my case at first, but the police made that decision for me and went through with it, and my case is nowhere near as serious as getting raped by 2 men, basketball players or not.

  • Anonymous

    I’m liberal on some issues, and conservative on others. I don’t always agree with some of the more extreme stances that some feminists take (example: I heard an argument that all heterosexual sex is rape, as there is an unequal power dynamic), but no matter your stance if a lady HITS you (unless there is some stated kink prior) then she clearly isn’t willing. That was a clear signal, if the guy kept going at that point, if he didn’t know it before (which I’m guessing he did), he damn well should have known after that he was pushing beyond her boundaries -> rape. If you read this story, and accept her version, there is no way that can conclude that this isn’t rape. The lady had a free hand and HIT the guy. Sounds like a CLEAR “no” to me.

  • http://www.trustviagra.com/ Generic Viagra

    Such things are on the rise and proper measures are to be taken in order to make an end of it. Awareness is needed.

  • msu2010

    Are you kidding? Ashamed of what behavior?! She did absolutely NOTHING wrong.

  • Be_Be

    If I had a nickel for every time I saw someone in comments claim to know the subject of a story or picture, I wouldn't have to work for quite some time.

    I mean, it's of course totally possible that you do know her, but for anyone new to commenting online, I want to make them aware of the fact that people can lie online much more easily than they can lie to the police.

  • http://twitter.com/DSea21 Dan Sears

    Her behavior would be inexcusable had she falsely accused these gentlemen of rape. I believe it is through this vein that the original poster's comments were meant to be interpreted. And furthermore, given the evidence from her own testimony, the alleged victim exercised poor judgment throughout the evening (i.e. Having several drinks and going off to a room alone with two men she had just met…). Her behavior was certainly questionable.

  • msu2010

    Having several drinks and going off with two men does not mean she deserved to be raped. Her actions in no way gave these men permission to do whatever they wanted with her. Sex without consent is rape and regardless of if this girl had 2 drinks or 20, or if she had known these guys for 10 minutes or her whole life, she did not consent. That's all that matters. Maybe you should consider blaming the men who are responsible for this, not the innocent victim who did absolutely nothing wrong.

  • Anonymous

    she did not consent?

    at one point she was “coaxed” into the act… is that not consensual… this is a solid example of half truth reporting by some one looking to increase traffic to their site because a horrific act such as CSC1st is going to bring up extreme amounts of emotion.

  • http://twitter.com/DSea21 Dan Sears

    You're letting your emotions cloud your interpretation of my argument. I never blamed the victim. I also never said because of her poor judgment she deserved to be raped. What I did say was that she exercised poor judgment throughout the evening (which she did) and this poor judgment led to questionable behavior (which it did). If your daughter went around a dorm room having several drinks and went off to a room alone with two men she had LITERALLY just met, you wouldn't find that questionable behavior? Again, I'm not one of those people that argues “she deserves what she got.” Try not to read too much into my argument or twist my words to mean something beyond my intentions.

  • Anonymous

    there are plenty of posts calling for better judgment of all parties involved. you must have missed them.

  • http://twitter.com/DSea21 Dan Sears

    And yet again my words are twisted. I can see this is a very emotional subject that you are obviously passionate about, so I'll try to explain my position a little more clearly.

    “Why is it there are such a multitude of people like you telling women that they need to be more careful about how much they drink, and where they go, and who they are with, and who knows where they are, and what they wear…”
    -In reference to your first question, I assume there's a multitude of people like me telling women to be more cautious because we've heard plenty of horror stories like this before. Women in particular should be careful about how they dress, where they go, and who they go there with simply because they are more susceptible to rape. This girl clearly used poor judgment when she decided to go off with two men she had just met. You shouldn't go off alone with two men that you've just been introduced to after you've been heavily drinking…Isn't that common sense? Wouldn't you expect your daughter to use better judgment? They should exercise even more caution given that these type of events are more common on college campuses.

    “…and there is such a paucity of people telling men that they need to be careful about who they have sex with, and how much they drank, and to make sure that they have explicit, enthusiastic consent (not just indecision or lack of objection)…?”
    -In reference to the second question, I'm assuming you're trying to point out some sort of double-standard that is practiced within our society. You make a good point. Men should be educated on what they should and should not do. I never addressed this issue in my original comments, because it was not the argument at hand. The question wasn't whether the men exercised poor judgment, but rather if the woman exercised poor judgment.

    “PS- Saying that her behavior is “questionable” is really saying “she is somewhat responsible for what the men did to her.” And as soon as you say that, you must also agree that “the men are not completely responsible for what they did to her.” Using women's behavior to absolve men from complete responsibility for their actions is a tired bit of rape apologism, and only marginally less heinous than saying “she deserved it.”
    -In reference to your final point, you're going out of your way to twist my argument. No, saying her behavior was questionable is not really saying “she is somewhat responsible.” If she's a victim of rape, then an incredible injustice has occurred, which the men would be responsible for. I'm not attempting to absolve these men if a rape was actually committed. But, whether you want to believe it or not, her behavior was questionable. She put herself in the wrong situation by not exercising better judgment. Now, these things can happen to people that don't even exercise poor judgment, but in this case, the woman has made it troublesome for herself to pursue a conviction because of her actions.

  • http://twitter.com/DSea21 Dan Sears

    Oh yeah, and I never made any comment about what she was wearing. You put those words into my mouth.

  • Be_Be

    Why is it there are such a multitude of people like you telling women that they need to be more careful about how much they drink, and where they go, and who they are with, and who knows where they are, and what they wear…

    …and there is such a paucity of people telling men that they need to be careful about who they have sex with, and how much they drank, and to make sure that they have explicit, enthusiastic consent (not just indecision or lack of objection)…?

  • Be_Be

    No, that's it exactly. All of those posts call for better judgement from BOTH parties. And then there are a number simply calling for better judgement on the woman's part. Hence my seeing an imbalance.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_X4SGFIUFPCYBUGXYO4IKLKTN3I Kyle

    Hey fun story, just because other men said things, doesn't mean Dan Sears did, so why don't you listen to what he's saying instead of branding him as “RAPE IS OK MAN!” and ranting on about shit he never said.

  • musicahumana

    Well aren't you lucky that as a man you have the privilege of not worrying about how much you drink, where you go, at what time you go there, who you're with… you are implicitly telling me that those of us women who do what we want (read: behave in a way that is acceptable and safe for men, but not women) will be punished with rape, all sorts of digs on our character, and no conviction (not even prosecution!) for crimes committed against us.

    Honest question: do you think that women should assume that all men are rapists? Just to be on the safe side?

  • Be_Be

    You shouldn't go off alone with two men that you've just been introduced to after you've been heavily drinking…Isn't that common sense?

    Much like musicahumana said, men don't find this to be common sense…they feel free to go off with two women they've just been introduced to when they've been drinking heavily and count on the strong likelihood that they won't be raped. (In fact, I suspect that drinking and going off with two women is something of a fantasy for men who go to bars hoping to pick up women.)

    I want to live in a world where the same standards of behavior generally apply to both men and women. Where women don't have to be more careful because “they are more susceptible to rape,” and live with that constant fear and caution, that feeling that they are prey, as well as the accompanying feelings of smallness, or helplessness, or of the feeling of being restricted that many of us feel.

    And this is no way an impossible dream. After all, rape isn't a force of nature, and it doesn't just happen. Women aren't more susceptible to rape because of some physiological trait in us, in the way that pale people are more susceptible to sunburn. Women are more susceptible to rape because of how all of us think about men, women, sex, and consent. And while the change will not happen overnight, I believe that those attitudes (about men, women, sex, and consent) can change.

    I am well aware that right now, by much of society's current standard, her behavior was “questionable.” -but I want to work towards a more equitable world, and I know that all it will take for us to live in a society where women are no more often questioned about how much they drink than men- is for us to stop questioning them more often.

  • http://twitter.com/DSea21 Dan Sears

    You're drawing more water from what's in the well. I didn't implicitly say anything of that nature. Do I believe women should exercise more caution when they want to go onto a college campus, have several drinks, and go up to a room with men they've just met? Yes, yes I do. You know why? Because we've heard too many horror stories like this one. The alleged victim should have exercise better judgment. That's a fact. Am I blaming her for what happened? No, the men are solely responsible for any actions they took against her will. Do I think she deserved to be raped, if in fact she was raped? No, absolutely not. Try not to put words in my mouth next time. And I can sense the sarcasm in your final question…So since it's a language you can understand, I'll respond with some of my own: When you read cases like this, is it impossible for you to be objective? Is it easier for you to assume that all men are rapists?

  • http://twitter.com/DSea21 Dan Sears

    You are clearly adept at pointing out supposed “double-standards” that exist within our society. I'll frame my response with this question: Who is raped more, men or women?

    The reason men probably don't make the same sort of assumptions is because more often than not they are not raped. While I have never researched woman-on-man rape, I have also never heard of such a case. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but I imagine it is extremely rare.

    I would also love to live in an ideal world, where woman don't have to live in fear and where men are held to the same general standards. I think you're sort of generalizing though. I don't think we live in a world where women always have to be on their guard or where they “live with that constant fear and caution, that feeling that they are prey…” And as a matter of fact, I never said they should have to live like that. You're exaggerating my point…which is that women should exercise more caution when they are planning to engage in activities like the alleged victim participated in. I don't think there's any harm in exercising caution (not to be interpreted as them living in a constant state of fear).

    And let me answer my original question: Yes, women are raped more. Hence, they are more susceptible to rape. And I never said it was a physiological trait that caused this susceptibility…But, we agree that attitudes towards sex and consent need to change. People should be educated more on these issues and how to address certain situations.

    And, lastly, I do not want to live in a society where her behavior is not labeled “questionable”. There is a level of morality that we all must adhere to, male and female, in this world. If it was normal for a woman to go gallivanting about with men she didn't even know…aren't there some major moral concerns? Of course the same should be said about men. Right now, we don't live in an ideal world. We live in this one. And we can make this a world with less rape if men changed their attitudes about women AND if women exercised more caution when approaching these type of situations.

  • http://anita-writ-in-water.blogspot.com/ Anitanola

    Dan Sears, if she is not responsible for being raped, and she was in a place and a condition, not having taken all the proper caution, where it was easy to rape her AND A RAPIST WAS ON THE SCENE, (who thought he was just a good ole boy doing what boys naturally do) and he went ahead even after she said not to, then, I ask you, who is responsible for raping her? There were other boys who could have but did not take this action. You are the one who will not face this fact and realize that it is the boys that must be the ones to stop raping, because the girls can't actually keep them from doing it, no matter how they dress or where they don''t go or what they say or how hard they fight. You don't seem to get it. Rape is rape whether you climb in the second story window and violate a virgin or strongarm a careles drunk girl who is visiting your room.

  • http://twitter.com/DSea21 Dan Sears

    I have not once blamed her for the alleged rape. If she was raped, obviously the fault would be with the perpetrators. Secondly, I have not once mentioned anything about what she was wearing or given any kind of opinion on what women should or should not wear. Could this situation have been prevented had she used better caution? Could THIS situation have been prevented had she used better caution? How can you sit there and excuse her poor judgment? Rape is rape…No matter how the woman acts, no matter what she wears, no matter who she is with and no matter where she is. But…you're acting like every single situation involving rape CAN'T be avoided. She's not to blame for the crime. But hopefully she uses better judgment in the future.

  • http://anita-writ-in-water.blogspot.com/ Anitanola

    I am not acting like anything. I am not talking about the woman. Her poor judgement made her very vulnerable. The only way she is partially responsible for being raped in your argument is if you believe vulnerable people are more acceptable victims for rapist and that the law should not be applied equally to rapist who rape the vulnerable. Obviously that argument won't hold up. The other weakness in your logic is that you think if it can't be charged and proven in a court of law it wasn't rape. Both of those positions are indefensible. You guys are gonna have to get it together because it you guys who are doing the deed.

    BTW, you sound like a really decent sort and I urge you to try to see this through the eyes of the daughters, not just the sons.

    Individual cases like this one are not just about that boy and that girl. They resonate in our society and it is important for us to examine our views every time these issues arise in yet another case. This is how we become more civilized.

    Teach the boys, Dan Sears. Believe me, the girls have been taught all their lives even though some are rebellious and stupid. They are all vulnerable once in a while, one way or another.

  • http://twitter.com/DSea21 Dan Sears

    Let me try this one more time. I think there is a slight misinterpretation of my argument here. Obviously vulnerable women would be more susceptible to rape. Rapists prey on vulnerabilities. The women are not inherently responsible or blameworthy for rape when they are vulnerable. Also, I didn't ever say because these women were vulnerable or not exercising enough caution that the law somehow doesn't apply to their rapists. What I meant was that a woman, such as the alleged victim in this case, could get themselves further away from harm had they exercised more caution. She doesn't receive inherent blame for the crime, but it could have been prevented if she was more deliberately alert.
    In reference to your second point about my supposed flawed logic, I do not believe we can label THESE men “rapists” if they are not convicted in a court of law. Now, do I think cases in which the woman was raped but the prosecutor can not find adequate evidence to convict her perpetrators occurs? Absolutely. I'm sure incidents like that occur. However, my point wasn't whether it should be considered rape if they are not convicted, but rather simply that the alleged victim will have a difficult time prosecuting these men given her flawed judgment and questionable character (along with all the other reasons the prosecutor chose not to pursue legal action).

  • Be_Be

    I don't think there's any harm in exercising caution

    I do. I don't think I have ever gone to a party where alcohol was being served, or gone into the city at night on my own, or gone to a bar on my own, or even gone anywhere on foot outside my home in the suburbs late at night- without thinking about the possibility that I might be attacked and/or raped.

    And if I nonetheless go out, those fears are sure to revisit me at some point during the evening, making me think I'd better hurry home rather than enjoy the night, or that I'd better not take off my long sleeve shirt, even though I'm uncomfortably warm, because perhaps someone might interpret that the wrong way or maybe I'll look too sexy in the shirt I'm wearing underneath, or I'll feel the need to clutch my purse tighter, or make sure I'm carrying my keys between my knuckles so I can punch someone with them if I have to.

    However realistic or not those fears are, they come from a lifetime of being told how, as a female person, I have to be extra careful. And I resent that I am expected to live with these fears as “common sense” while my male friends are free to do pretty much any of these things without such fears.

    And we can make this a world with less rape if men changed their attitudes about women AND if women exercised more caution when approaching these type of situations.

    The way I see it, all that is necessary if for us all to change our attitudes about consent. Go from a “no means” (it's not rape unless you say no) to a “yes means yes” (it IS rape unless you say yes) society. I mean, if that standard of consent were applied, it wouldn't matter if women exercised more caution or not, because men would quit trying to have sex with them without their explicit, non-drunken consent.

    Besides, as one woman I know says, none of the things we tell women to do work in every case, anyway. Women are raped drunk, or not; wearing skirts, jeans, or sweatpants; by people they know or not; when they went out with friends or alone; fighting back or not; knowing martial arts or not; day or night…you get the idea. However, there is one thing that every rape has in common, and that is the presence of a rapist.

    Again, the way I see it, the root of a crime is the criminal, the criminal's attitudes, and the role of societal attitudes in shaping the criminal's attitudes.

    Additionally, since sex is normally a consensual activity, a lot of rape survivors have considerable self-doubt afterward, anyway (even without people telling them that their behavior was “questionable”). Wondering if they deserved it because they were stupid, or maybe could they have fought more, or it really is their fault because they gave the wrong impression to the person who assaulted them? We victimize them a second time when we add to their self-doubt by, as a society, explicitly or implicitly telling them that their behavior is “questionable,” and that, if they had behaved differently, they probably could have avoided it.

    Finally, you wrote: “And, lastly, I do not want to live in a society where her behavior is not labeled “questionable” There is a level of morality that we all must adhere to, male and female, in this world.”

    I'm afraid of where you might be going with that. All this time, I thought you were saying her behavior was “questionable” because it might increase her likelihood of being raped. If it's questionable for moral reasons…that's different. I…just wouldn't know what to say to you if you thought it was okay to tell people by what morality they have to live their lives. While it's true that we have a minimum basis for “moral” behavior within the law, beyond that attitudes are so varied among the population for it not to make sense to try to impose anyone's morality on anyone else.

    If it was normal for a woman to go gallivanting about with men she didn't even know…aren't there some major moral concerns?

    Like what? I don't see any major moral concerns if women are free to go gallivanting (great word!) about with men they just met. I think who a woman associates with socially, sexually, and in any other way is truly her own choice- she shouldn't have to make her choices in accord with someone else's morality. I'm FIRMLY in favor of a world where we all get to determine our own morality, within the confines of the law.

  • http://twitter.com/DSea21 Dan Sears

    You've exaggerated my arguments enough. I sympathize with your convictions and I respect your opinions. I think we're on the same page in that attitudes about men and women in our society are in need of dire change. But, you have either misinterpreted my point or severely embellished its meaning. Now, let me examine some of your counterpoints:

    -In reference to your first point on exercising caution; I meant exercising a GENERAL sense of caution. I'm not condoning women having to live in a constant state of fear, like you are suggesting. When I said there's no harm in exercising general caution in this alleged victim's case, or in similar cases, I meant there's no harm in NOT going around having several drinks, meeting men for the first time, going off to their room alone, and playing “strip” basketball, and whatever else she might have consented to. All of those things put together invite harm to befall you. I'm assuming this is not a common practice in your life. Yes, you can go out and enjoy drinks and meet men, but it's wiser to wait on sexual encounters until you know the person. Fair to say? The same should be expected of men. I'm sorry you have to live the way you do. We can change perceptions, but it's foolish to think that it will happen overnight. So, for the time being, it's safer to exercise a GENERAL sense of caution when you want to practice a somewhat liberal lifestyle, like this alleged victim has done. And in my own personal opinion, I don't think every case of rape is as cut and dry as you make it. Sometimes, consent doesn't matter one bit. Some men just want to rape and victimize women. That is the world we live in and I hate it. More on this later…

    -In reference to your second point about going from a “no means no” to a “yes means yes” society; Your proposal isn't ideal either. Let's apply this principle to a somewhat extreme example: Woman has sex with a man…She later regrets it…The woman never explicitly said “yes” to sex…She feels shamed by her actions…which motivates her to charge the man with rape…In this example, men are left far too vulnerable to unjust accusation. The woman didn't say yes, therefore it's labeled rape. We can see the holes in this argument already. I'm not exactly sure what the law says when there is an absence of consent (i.e. it's not rape unless you say no). I've never heard of someone accusing another of rape when their actions didn't dictate “no.” And you're right in asserting that rape can happen no matter what. But in those cases, CONSENT doesn't matter and can't be applied to its intent. If rape can happen no matter what, the lack of knowledge over consent isn't always at the heart of the issue. Like I said before, some people want to rape others (for some sense of empowerment or whatever). I don't pretend to know their motivations, I just know it happens. But this sense of caution I'm asking you to exercise is similar to asking a man to be careful when he's walking in a dangerous neighborhood. The man doesn't have to live in a constant state of fear whenever he walks outside his home; he only has to exercise caution when he is in precarious situations.

    “the role of societal attitudes in shaping the criminal's attitudes.”
    I suppose my response would be, what is a woman's role than is shaping the criminal's attitudes? What responsibilities do you think she has? Are there women that degrade other women with their actions? Not saying they're solely responsible, but do they contribute to this “attitude”?

    -I stand firmly by my assertion that her behavior was questionable (in that it increased her likelihood of being raped). Am I attempting to victimize her in this manner? No. Should she exercise more caution in the future? Yes.
    -My moral assertions were a separate point. But in reference to your statement: “While it's true that we have a minimum basis for “moral” behavior within the law, beyond that attitudes are so varied among the population for it not to make sense to try to impose anyone's morality on anyone else.” Wait…what? This is hypocrisy. You see, where your logic fails you is that you are also trying to impose your own morality. So, I have no right to impose my idea of how people should live, but you have every right to impose your idea of how people should live on me? You've made yourself a hypocrite and just as close-minded as me.

    -”I'm FIRMLY in favor of a world where we all get to determine our own morality, within the confines of the law.” I'm all for people being able to exercise their own free will within the confines of the law. However, if you want to maintain a liberal lifestyle, like the one practiced by the alleged victim, you might be inviting more harm to befall you, because this is the world we live in (not the IDEAL world that you aggrandize).

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_XIKH3UY3FAU6UOMPKOP4KXTNOU Konstantin Koverchenko

    “Besides, as one woman I know says, none of the things we tell women to do work in every case, anyway.”

    There is an expression: Beware of making the perfect the enemy of the good. Even if the things we tell women don't work in every case, there are some good general principles for protecting oneself that can protect you a lot of the time.

    There is no silver bullet for rape, but there are many small things that generally lead you towards less risk. Even if the rape prevention strategies only decrease the incidence of rape by 10% (e.g. a buddy system, never leaving your drink alone, etc.), that's still a lot. If 100,000 rapes occur in the US every year (a number I just made up, but feels reasonable), well, you can do the math.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_XIKH3UY3FAU6UOMPKOP4KXTNOU Konstantin Koverchenko

    I think you guys are talking about two different kinds of responsibility. A rapist is completely morally responsible for committing a rape. A rape victim is sometimes responsible in the most practical sense. Ideally, a victim shouldn't have to worry about being raped and shouldn't have to take precautions. If a victim does things that put him/her at risk, it's foolish but it doesn't make him/her at all morally responsible for the rape, nor does it legally mitigate the rapist.

    In other words, I think you actually agree. Mostly. But I might be mistaken. 🙂

  • SunlessNick

    Just like the half truth of you ignoring this part, “The player then admitted to detectives that he understood how the woman believed she was not welcome to leave the room” – anything she did under those circumstances was compliance, not consent.