Top Stories

The Michigan Messenger going forward

By Staff Report | 11.16.11

I am writing today to announce the closure of the Michigan Messenger. After four years of operation in Michigan, the board of the American Independent News Network, has decided to shift publication of its news into a single site, The American Independent at Americanindependent.com. This is part of a shift in strategy, towards new forms [...]

Colorado-based abstinence program provided false and misleading information to Michigan students

HIV-AIDS-small
By Todd A. Heywood | 11.16.11

An abstinence-only presentation provided to numerous school districts in Calhoun and Eaton Counties in October of this year provided false and misleading information to students about HIV, experts allege.

Class action lawsuit filed against MERS over unpaid taxes

foreclosure
By Todd A. Heywood | 11.15.11

Two county registers of deeds filed a class action lawsuit Monday on behalf of Michigan’s 83 counties alleging that the Mortgage Electronic Registration Services owes millions of dollars in property title transfer taxes.

Schuette fights important mercury regulations

epa_logo
By Eartha Jane Melzer | 11.14.11

Despite evidence of the impact of mercury on children and public health, Michigan Attorney General Bill Schuette last month joined with 24 other state attorneys general in filing a lawsuit to scuttle new EPA regulations that would reduce mercury emissions from power plants.

MSU basketball players accused of sexual assault

By Todd A. Heywood | 09.29.10 | 1:00 pm

EAST LANSING — Documents obtained by Michigan Messenger show two high-profile Michigan State University basketball players have been accused of committing sexual assault on campus in August. Despite the allegations, prosecutors have declined to take up the case, and the victim disputes the reasons offered for not bringing charges.

The heavily redacted police report released by Ingham County Prosecutor Stuart Dunnings III alleges the two team members took turns assaulting an unidentified woman for nearly an hour in their Wonders Hall dormitory room late on Aug. 29 and into Aug. 30.

The police report indicates that one of the two players corroborated the victim’s story in his statement to police. Although the MSU Police Department forwarded the report to the prosecutor’s office with a recommendation that the men be charged with Criminal Sexual Conduct 1 — the most serious level of sexual assault under state law — Dunnings has declined to prosecute the case.

In a statement dated Sept. 14 and released on Friday, Dunnings says charging a criminal sexual conduct case “requires the element of force and/or coercion.” He said numerous prosecutors of both genders reviewed the case report and “none could find any of these necessary elements.” The police report and statements by the victim suggest otherwise.

Michigan Messenger is not naming the players because they have not been arrested or charged with a crime. The names have been confirmed by law enforcement and other sources, as well as Dunnings, who released the police report after Messenger filed a Freedom of Information Act request citing the names of the accused. Messenger does not report the names of sexual assault victims without their consent.

‘What felt like forever’

According to the five-page victim’s statement in the police report, the victim had attended a Wonders Hall orientation meeting and had noticed the basketball players there. She then went room to room with friends and had several drinks. At about 11 p.m. she ran into the accused in the lobby of the dorm and introduced herself to them.

She agreed to go back to the players’ room after a conversation with the two.

Once in the room, the three started playing basketball using a mini-hoop. When the victim missed a basket, one of the men told her she had to remove an article of clothing. The victim agreed and removed her t-shirt because she had a tank top on underneath.

At this point, the victim says, the players began to deliberately miss baskets until they were stripped “completely naked.” One of the men allegedly blocked the doorway to the room, while the other “cornered” the victim in the room.

“[The victim] explained to [detectives] that the body language of [the players] suggested she was not free to leave,” the report says. “[Redacted] was blocking any escape path to the exit of the dorm room. [The victim] stated that after [redacted] approached the door he turned the lights in the room off and the room went completely dark. At this point, the sexual assault began.”

The victim told police the players penetrated her in various positions. The victim told detectives the players allegedly asked her “how does that feel?” and “how do you want it?” The victim says she told the players she didn’t want it and gave “other indicators she was not a willing participant.”

The victim told police that the players pinned her down, but at one point she freed her arms momentarily and struck one of the players in the face. The player was on top of her and in response to her hitting him, he allegedly said, “Don’t. Just relax. C’mon,” as he continued to assault her, the report says.

Toward the end of the alleged assault, a suite mate attempted to enter the room through the adjoining bathroom. One of the players reportedly got up, went to the door and told the person who tried to enter, “It’s OK, man, get out of here.” The door was promptly closed.

MSU detectives interviewed the suite mate on Sept. 2. He said he heard a woman “moaning” and said it sounded like she was having sex “and was not in any trouble.”

Later one of the players reportedly entered the suite mate’s room and told him, “We got this girl,” “She’s from the dorm,” and “We both had sex with her.”

Judge issues search warrant

Detectives and officers from the MSU police department executed a search warrant signed by East Lansing District Court Judge Richard Ball at 12:30 a.m. on Aug. 31 in the players’ dorm room. Officials seized DNA and fiber evidence, clothing, and used condoms among other items, records show.

The affidavit and supporting information used by detectives to get the warrant was not released under the Freedom of Information Act request.

In the report, Detective Sgt. Maureen Kennedy and Detective Nicole Simi say that when they read the warrant to the players, one of them was “smirking.” The players were then separated and one of them was cooperative, telling detectives, “Yeah, I know why you’re here,” and “I’m gonna tell you what happened.”

The player also reportedly told detectives he knew he did not have to say anything, “but I want to give my side of the story.”

The other player declined to give a statement to police.

Player collaborates victim’s statements

During his interview with detectives, the one player who volunteered a statement corroborated much of the victim’s statement, the report shows. He told investigators that when it was clear from the victim’s statements that she did not want to have sex, he stopped. However, the other player continued “despite her reluctance and statements that she did not want to continue.” The victim confirms that player’s account.

The player told detectives he was concerned “over the girl’s reaction to the circumstances,” noting she was “timid” and “not aggressive.” The player then admitted to detectives that he understood how the woman believed she was not welcome to leave the room, in part because she kept referencing that the two were “bigger” than her.

The player then said a second time that he stopped when she said to, but the other player “coaxed” her into continuing the sexual activity.

The player told detectives that he and the other player should apologize because he felt the two had “disrespected” the woman.

The decision not to prosecute

Dunnings said the case was reviewed by at least two female prosecutors in his office. He said the case was reviewed by Debra Rousseau Bouck, who reviews all criminal sexual conduct cases for the county’ and either Lisa McCormick, chief assistant prosecutor in the Ingham County Prosecutor’s Office; or Catherine Emerson, deputy chief assistant prosecutor. He said it was possible both Emerson and McCormick reviewed the case, but he was “unsure.”

Dunnings said the determination as to whether or not to prosecute was based in part on information not contained in the police reports — and that the alleged victim agreed that no charges should be filed.

“After reviewing everything with the young lady, this was a mutual decision,” Dunnings said in a phone interview Monday. “She [the victim] fully understood and agreed, is what Ms. Bouck [Ingham County Prosecutor assigned to review sex crimes] related to me.”

But the victim challenged the statements by Dunnings and Bouck.

The woman, who spoke exclusively to Messenger on the condition of her anonymity, said that she met with Bouck two days after the assault. The meeting occurred at Bouck’s downtown Lansing office. The victim says the two MSU detectives who investigated her case accompanied her to the meeting, but Bouck asked them not to come in the room for the discussion.

“It’s really hard to actually get a case to go through because there are twelve jurors and to get them all to see it from my point of view is hard,” the victim says Bouck told her. “Then she said she was going to take a defense approach, she started asking me all these questions.”

The victim says Bouck grilled her about whether or not it was possible the perpetrators thought the activity was consensual, why she didn’t yell and scream and why she didn’t run or try and fight her way out of the room. The victim was reduced to tears by the hypothetical interrogation.

“She just kept going, and I was crying,” the victim said. “I really don’t think she asked me if I wanted to (prosecute).”

Shari Murgittroyd, program director for Michigan State University’s Sexual Assault Program, said she is surprised that prosecutors did not issue arrest warrants in this case. She spoke to Messenger after reviewing the released police report.

“I’m in shock. After hearing what was in the police report, I am amazed charges were not issued,” Murgittroyd said.

Murgittroyd says in her 10-year career dealing with sexual assault, the typical reasons she has often heard to justify not prosecuting — such as the victim blacked out or there is no physical evidence — do not seem to apply in this case.

“You’ve got a great police report with all those statements,” Murgittroyd said. “It’s ideal to have the victim participate in prosecuting a criminal sexual conduct case, but it’s my understanding that it is not necessary.”

The victim says she is unsure about prosecution.

“I worry about what would happen if it didn’t go through and having to deal with all the publicity and everything that goes with pursuing charges,” she said. “But also I am angry. It’s just that everybody looks at them as heroes and they’re so excited for basketball season that [the players] get off without anybody caring. They haven’t even been punished.”

Asked what she would like to see, she tenses the muscles in her face, and chews nervously at her upper lip.

“Just some justice, because right now there’s none,” she says.

Update: You can read the full police report here.

Comments

  • Anonymous

    nothing.

    • thk334

      your on to something

    • freedomrocker

      please remove the above comment. i just heard from some one who told me they heard it. i would delete it if i could but this site does not allow it or i at least can't figure it out. again, what i just posted was an alleged rumor and i now saying i have no idea who allegedly participated in the story above.

  • Anonymous

    The skeptical view…

    -she goes to an orientation and is star struck by a couple basketball players… -she drinks, gets drunk, and develops some “liquid courage” to talk to them…
    -she goes to their room late in the night… drunk… this is what one may call DTF
    -after a flirty game of strip basketball she has an encounter that lasts an HOUR in which she can be heard moaning, has a suite-mate walk…
    -at some point she realizes this may not rate in the best judgment category and tells them to stop

    Yea, I can see why they are not pursuing charges. I would hope all three involved demonstrate better judgment from here on out in all aspects of life.

    • instant1

      Did you not read that one of the players sided with this young woman! Let's not victimize her even more.

      • Anonymous

        Define this statement –

        “The player then said a second time that he stopped when she said to, but the other player “coaxed” her into continuing the sexual activity.”

        So he talked her back into it? Again, we do NOT know enough about the situation. There is too much gray area. This is not a situation where someone is beat, abducted, raped, and left for dead.

        • jdblue82

          It does leave one to wonder how aggresively she was “coaxed” and if the player who stopped maybe was trying to soften things in his account of what happened so his buddy wouldn't get into trouble.

          A lot of guys seem to think it's not rape if she's drunk and seems willing. No means stop, it doesn't mean keep it up in the hopes she'll change her mind. Justifying rape on these grounds is disgusting. Let the police, the DA, and the defense attorney handle that.

          • Anonymous

            again, i’ll keep saying it… the public does not have enough information to make any judgment.

          • jdblue82

            You're absolutely right. Which is why it's obscene that given the information available, no charges have been filed. At this point, that would be the only way to clear the names of these two players should their names leak out. (And you know they probably will.)

            Also, a problem with your initial scenario. From the police report it sounds like you missed an item at the end:

            “-at some point she realizes this may not rate in the best judgment category and tells them to stop”
            -one or both of them fail to stop, constituting an act of sexual assault

            For purposes of defining sexual assault, once a participant becomes unwilling, any further sexual contact is assault. It literally does not matter if she was okay with it only two minutes before. If she changes her mind, “coaxing” is not okay. Furthermore, most states allow for prosecution for sexual assault if the victim was under the influence of alcohol or drugs, for obvious reasons. Informed consent is hard to obtain from a drunk or drugged individual.

          • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_7Z42VN5WLOSASRBUAJDOKW2F64 Matthew Lofton

            Ask the Duke lacrosse kids about being charged and having their names cleared…

        • instant1

          Guess what, most rapes are people that are know each other. So, you are right there was no beating, abduction or left for dead (unlike most rapes). Just the statement that the victim and one of the men agree that she became an unwilling participant, yet no charges!

          • Anonymous

            “Just the statement that the victim and one of the men agree that she became an unwilling participant”

            Which brings up plenty of questions… One of the men agree. It does not state how much, or what he agrees with regarding her statement. It says he heard the word “no” and does not elaborate more than that. Was she into one and not the other? Was it regarding the actions going on, actions the other guy wanted her to engage in next… if she wanted to go for a pizza… who the hell knows, it was not reported.

            The story also claims he is remorseful and should apologize. This is not exactly a claim of guilt… perhaps he thinks about it after wards and realizes running a train on some chick is not what his grandmother would approve of so he says, he can see where he disrespected the female as he was slapping his johnson on her forehead. Again, who the hell knows.

            The people that DO know though have decided to not bring charges against something that has no evidence. What we have so far is a story that has been spun to promote emotional response and hate mongering.

            Remember, she noticed them. She, the 22 year old college senior… them, the 18 year old freshman basketball players. She approached them looking to party. She took off an article of attire first. From there who knows but having no physical evidence that is spoken of is interesting.

            The way the story is wrote is open to interpretation… just like someone who writes down the police report. It is open to interpretation.

            Better judgment needs to be shared by all three of them to avoid situations like this. Welcome to a life lesson.

    • spartan_spirit

      Even if she tells them to stop during the act, they need to everyone has the right to change their mind, otherwise by definition it is rape. Dunnings is horrible at pursuing SA charges, she deserves her day in court. Prosecutors are too damn worried about making their stats go down. Just because someone walks into a person's room late at night does not mean that they are DTF. Moaning does not mean consent, it's part of a body's physiological response, if she's “frozen” (the third rarely spoken of yet most common out of fight, flight, and freeze in SA cases), then her body including her vocal chords will respond. That doesn't mean it's consensual, and explains why she didn't ask her suite mate for help. There's enough to prosecute with and let the jury decide, Dunning is just too wuss to do it.

      Better judgment on who's part? She has a right to get drunk and wasted, walk into a guy's room and not get raped or be able to change her mind. It's not reality, but it is a right. This doesn't mean she's asking for it. If people thought they were going to get raped every time they drank, no one would drink.

      • Anonymous

        Like I said… I was playing devils advocate looking at the skeptical side of it. Everything you said is true as well. Honestly, I do not think she is an angel after reading and thinking of the situation. She does have the right to change her mind… they had the right to screw her up to that point because it sounded consentual… at what point during the hour did she say, “no”? Was it the 58th minute? or the 1st?

        There is a lot we do not know regarding the situation other than there was poor judgment displayed by three people with irresponsible behavior.

        If you were her would you really want your “day in court?”

        • jdblue82

          Yet she does want her day in court, it seems.

        • NannyPants

          “They had a right to screw her.” So it was ok, because they were entitled to her body? Classy.

          • Anonymous

            you took only a portion of the quote… did you take journalism lessons from the author?

          • NannyPants

            No one has a right to another person's body. The fact that you think these men had any right to her body, at all, is indicative of the kind of mindset that keeps rape victims from coming forward and keeps many people attacking the victim as the source of the problem.

            I don't know how much clearer it could be. Whether the woman was an “angel” or not, she did not want to have sex with these men. Whether she was showing “bad judgment” by doing what a majority of students do on a college campus — drink and hang out with people you may not know — or whether she was walking alone at night or whatever, there is no excuse for any person to force sexual contact on a person who does not want it.

            The issue is not whether she was being a good girl (because plenty of angels get raped, too), it is whether these men are getting a free pass from the prosecutor, who subjected this woman to the same kind of victim blaming and intimidation a troubling majority of commentors are as well.

            Not only are these guys getting a free pass from Dunnings, but they're getting one from you and your ilk, too. Simply disgusting.

          • Anonymous

            okay… no one has a right to another person’s body… even when she is a willing participant.

            she did want to have sex with one or both of them. you are not getting the full story from the author.

          • NannyPants

            How do you know she wanted to have sex with them? From what she said in the interview, she clearly did not. From what one of the men said in his police interview, it was clear she did not.

          • Anonymous

            heck, she could be the predator for all we know… upperclassman (senior) with an agenda against a couple incoming freshman…

            she notices, approaches, accepts, and then rescinds. she pursued them. how about we learn the full story because plenty of scenarios can be made up… similar to the one in the police report.

            bottom line is there is no evidence of coercion.

          • rb092

            What a dramatic point of view you have.

          • rb092

            What a dramatic point of view you have.

    • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_Z536YHLGZ7W73QHKD5DZXIKPLI Julia

      Nice victim blaming. Also, lovely pro-rape view.

    • Be_Be

      You call yourself a skeptic, but throughout your comments you only argue for one potential side of the story, despite saying that there isn't enough evidence for the public to decide. I call b.s.

      • Anonymous

        because… we only received a portion of the story and from what was shown in this opinionated article that is portrayed as proof there is plenty of doubt and things just do not add up… i guess that is what makes ME SKEPTICAL…

  • http://www.google.com/profiles/living.gratitude Mary H.

    “No” means “no”. It sounds like the Bouck missed the very heart of what constitutes rape. And with one of the perpetrators collaborating the victim's story, there should be no question about her accuracy as a witness. All she asked for, in the end, was justice. Where is it?

    • msu2010

      EXACTLY. One of the perpetrators admitted that he knew why the detectives were there and understood that he had done something wrong. How much more evidence do you need?!

      • acdc392333

        But she didn't say no. Thats whats being disputed. According to both accounts it seems she ended up consenting in some form or other. This isn't a rape, she went to the room, when she said she wasnt interested one stopped and then the other convinced her. Convincing someone to have sex is not a rape. Sorry. I agree with the fact that there shouldnt be charges. In fact Bouck did the right thing. If she cant hold up in a hypothetical prosecution and the only other witness that wasnt a part of the act say he heard no sound of struggle.

        • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_6L6WZ6PJ7DY5YX2DIRR3QGTCHA B Grace

          In fact she DID say no and then was coerced into having sex. She replied multiple times that she did not want to have sex. See:

          “[...]The victim told detectives the players allegedly asked her “how does that feel?” and “how do you want it?” The victim says she told the players she didn’t want it and gave “other indicators she was not a willing participant.”

          The victim told police that the players pinned her down, but at one point she freed her arms momentarily and struck one of the players in the face. The player was on top of her and in response to her hitting him, he allegedly said, “Don’t. Just relax. C’mon,” as he continued to assault her, the report says.”

          ACDC, you seem to read only what you want to read. No means no. Violence, manipulation, and physical intimidation are indications she was not willing.

          • MrBaller24

            sounds like a married couple. usually one of the spouses has to convince the other that it is a good idea, because rarely, unless alcohol is involved (as in the exact case), are both partners willing and ready.

            Most of you must have forgotten that part or its been too long since your last romp.

            why wouldnt screaming be considered a indicator of unwillingness?
            this whole thing just doesn't add up.

        • Leelar55

          How the F do you know what she said! Were you there? And no sounds of struggle? Do you know how you would react if you were over-powered by two people? Maybe the moaning wasn't from pleasure, but from pain. And the other witness? He was blocked from going into the room, took the word of his suite-mate–one of the alleged perpetrators, who said “It's okay, man, get out of here.” Not exactly a stellar witness.

        • http://twitter.com/emilysyrja Emily Syrja

          “Convincing someone to have sex” is coercion, which falls under the legal definition of rape.

          • http://profiles.yahoo.com/u/KWJ4UFNKXXDRSFBOUFL7BL56UE michael

            This is factually incorrect. I know of no penal code in the U.S. which adheres to such a doctrine. “Convincing” someone to have sex is far too broad a statement to ever be considered in any way, shape, or form a legal definition. Where do you draw the line? Isn't dating a woman “convincing” her to have sex, up until the point the consensual sex begins? I think that it is very likely that there is enough here to prosecute in this case; however, I just had to point out that your statement is not correct- convincing is not coercion. For the proper definition of coercion, please see http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/coercion. thanks.

          • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_OU2U5RZUK22CFOQICX2AI4UVD4 Fake

            “Convincing someone to have sex is coercion.”

            Umm…what law school did you go to? Convincing someone to have sex is not coercion unless you're using force or drugs. A silver tongue isn't the same thing as a roofie. Take your blindly-feminist perspectives elsewhere.

          • http://twitter.com/frankcmu Jamie Franklin

            She was under the influence of Alcohol aka a drug…

          • Anonymous

            So were they last I read. By your logic she’s just as guilty as they are.

          • LaRouge

            So, you're saying alcohol doesn't count as a drug? Wow, take that one to court. What law school did YOU go to? Because I'm at Harvard Law, and you are completely out of your league. Go back to your cheetos and beer and Fox news.

          • http://twitter.com/frankcmu Jamie Franklin

            I am saying alcohol dose count as a drug… I am happy for you and your big (potential) law degree. Unfortunately our legal system does a horrible job at defending Survivors of sexual aggression. Maybe you can change it up. :D

          • mijo247

            the alcohol counts as a drug but the players didnt give her the alcohol she drank it on her own. It says the players convinced her to keep going, meaning she went along with it. All of us guys know if a girl is saying no or not. She went up to their room and her pants came off with no force= not a rape, try and get a 9 year old's pants off when they dont want you to, theres gonna be a struggle

          • http://anita-writ-in-water.blogspot.com/ Anitanola

            I beg your pardon; a 9 year old? What are you talking about? Are you some expert on disrobing children? Yours is the most unsavory comment yet.

          • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_ODP4K26BVPOPMO6N5ASGWXW3EY Joe Scharphorn

            Wow, such obliviousness… The players do not have to have given her the alcohol. If someone is under the influence of any mind-altering substances such as alcohol, even if they drank the alcohol themselves, they are considered unfit to give consent. Thank you to Jamie Franklin who mentions that you legally have to say yes to be considered consenting to a sexual act. And mijo, watch your actions, dude. “All of us guys know if a girl is saying no or not” – good luck with that, that kind of attitude puts you at a risk for being accused of sexual misconduct yourself, not to mention the fact that I hope none of your friends or relatives ever accuses someone of sexual misconduct, because you clearly wouldn't understand their situation.

            This whole situation makes me sick. This happens to far too many victims, and this screams too much of the prosecutor backing down because of who the accused are. Victim's rights in the United States are far from where they should be when prosecutors act like this one did.

          • http://twitter.com/DarthMarion Marion Delaunay

            I don't know about US but in France, threat is one of the means of rape and it's not required to be explicit threat (well duh otherwise hided threats would be a way of life for a rapist).

        • http://twitter.com/frankcmu Jamie Franklin

          Actully it is… it is called coercion and that is RAPE. To consent to an act you need the presence of a YES not the absence on a NO

        • http://twitter.com/strangedesire Stephanie Laskowski

          “Convincing someone to have sex is not a rape.”
          Yes, because the two basketball players that made her feel like she couldn't escape from the situation somehow managed to “convince” her to sleep with them. She probably wasn't intimidated into it AT ALL.

          • Anonymous

            Aww her poor feeeeeeelings. She’s a grown ass women who can speak up for herself. What you’re proposing is women have the same level of agency as children. Is that really what you want? Because when you propose we treat women with kid gloves that’s the reality.

        • Guest

          Are you kidding? When are we going to realize that anything BUT yes means no? When you're a large male athlete on a college campus, “convincing” a girl to have sex sounds an awful lot like raping her to me. This is why girls don't report rape, because of people who imply that, by going into a room with them, she basically consented. And “sound of struggle”? It's not her job to make appropriate noises in order to be believed.

        • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_FWO6POL3Z2AIEMO33V6ZK73G34 Pauly

          If you have to pin someone down during intercourse the act is not consensual. If the partner is struggling to get away the act is not consensual. There are many non verbal communications going on to identify that there was not consent. Further, these young men will impose their will on future unwilling participants. This case will be brought up. Questions will be asked….

      • MrBaller24

        apparently you didnt read the entire report or the entire statement when he said it all started out as consensual…

        • sarahephillips

          it doesn't matter if it began “consensually” or not. she was 1. intoxicated and 2. said no after it started!

          that is rape. legally and morally.

        • SA_Advocate

          I hope you realize, MrBaller24, that consenting to enter a room and play a game is not the same as consenting to be vaginally or anally penetrated by two men. I hope you also realize sir, that consenting to…let say making out, is NOT THE SAME AS CONSENTING TO SEX. And for your sake, and the sake of your partner (present or future) you realize that if one partner chooses to retract consent at any point during/before that it is not longer consensual and is in fact rape if the other partner does not stop. Yes is the ONLY thing that means yes, and once yes is no, then all sexual actions MUST stop.

    • MrBaller24

      yep, sure all the attorneys missed that great piece of evidence. Maybe you should point it out to them.

    • Anonymous

      Right, No means No. Which she never said. In fact she said “I’m done”. Then she turned around and had another sex session with one of the “alleged”. This isn’t rape, it’s a classic case of “Aw crap, I really regret doing that. RAAAAAAPE!”

  • easpkadjhpad

    This is the lowest form of journalism to report this, and it is absolutely reckless and irresponsible. Why is it a story that someone is accused, when there are no charges filed?

    • kujala

      The point of the story is THAT no charges were filed.

    • lr2010

      The story is the fact that there are no charges being filed when there should be. And, call this low-level journalism when ESPN picks this story up. You're in for a big surprise.

    • PapaWord

      Are you serious, dude??? Stop worrying about the new hoopsters and start worrying about a pathetic cover-up that isn't going away anytime soon. Will State and TI do the right thing, or are they already in it too deep?

    • Genessender

      Reckless and irresponsible to whom?
      The rapists (by one's own confession) haven't been named; neither has the victim. The only problem is that the prosecutor is apparently protecting the school and the players.

      • Anonymous

        Oh yeah sure, the prosecutor doesn’t want to prosecute the school when he prosecuted 14 players on the football team. Just shut the #$@% up when you don’t know the facts!

  • wyldstallyns81

    She had every opportunity to scream and grab the suite mate's attention. It sounds like her reputation was tarnished for getting it on with 2 men and she decided the only way she could escape being branded a slut was to falsely accuse them of rape. No, dont and stop can be misheard as no dont stop, what we have here is a failure to communicate. No reason to destroy lives because she cant communicate herself properly. Women, if you are getting raped in the dorms scream at the top of your lungs and some one will hear you and call the police, it is that simple.

    • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_SEFGURGY2STZKF4LXJGCEACIJU jcugolf

      Thanks for the report. Rapist of the world appreciate your view.

      • wyldstallyns81

        so do red blooded Americans who believe people are innocent until proven guilty.

        • ryguy88

          So why are you accusing a woman of filing a false accusation. Which I'm sure as a “red blooded American” you know is also a crime. It appears that your “innocent until proven guilty” only applies to the alleged offender in this case. If you are going to use presumption innocence as your justification, shouldn't it apply to everyone. And if that is the case shouldn't you wait until there is a verdict reached before you share your opinions.

        • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_QHRT3YJ6DUTOOWLR6ZEV6XISKQ Add Ddiidds

          …as well as green hearted sparties who believe that their MSU athletes are always without exception justified in their actions.

          go green! The team deserves an extra cheer this Saturday for those 'wrongfully' accused…and if we're at it why not for the football players who persevered through that other harrowing dorm incident! Victory for MSC!

        • LaRouge

          How the hell can they be “innocent until proven guilty” when charges aren't even being filed? I think thou dost protest too much. And if you're a “red blooded American” then I am embarrassed to call myself the same.

      • Anonymous

        What, that women be held accountable as adults instead of being treated like they’re about as responsible as small children?

    • http://twitter.com/emilysyrja Emily Syrja

      Whose life, exactly, is being destroyed? No charges have been filed, and in all likelihood the players in question are going to continue to ride out their undeserved privileges so that this is never investigated and never goes to court. Why are you insistent on seeing high-profile college basketball players as being victimized? They have tremendous power in the East Lansing community and on campus, and the victims don't. I don't think it's much of a stretch to suggest that they could abuse that power if they so chose.

      Furthermore, shouting when you're being raped is not “that simple.” If someone is violent and cruel enough to rape you, they're probably also violent and cruel enough to seriously hurt you if you draw attention to the act. The victim in this case did exactly what a victim would: got herself to safety and THEN reported it.

      • howiebledsoe

        Yep. This is the crux of the problem. Most men have never been raped, and rape victims rarely confide in men. Fair enough, really. I understand that many men just dont understand the complexities. Women are told to comply and “nothing seriously bad will happen.” Its a no brainer that if a powerful man is on top of you, you will do exacly as he says, hoping to get it over with as soon as possible.

        • Anonymous

          Um, no. Most rapes are actually against men. Prison rape is a huge problem, but good luck hearing about that on the evening news.

        • Anonymous

          Um, no. Most rapes are actually against men. Prison rape is a huge problem, but good luck hearing about that on the evening news.

      • wyldstallyns81

        I said no reason to destroy lives, didnt say that any had already been destroyed. Prosecution and the publicity around it would severely impact the lives of the 2 players. I am am not insistent on “seeing basketball players victimized” I am concerned as a fellow man. There are numerous cases where females have lied about rape. Simply being accused is enough to sway public opinion about your character.

        You are very paranoid to chalk this up a a conspiracy theory. With internet forums, blogs, etc nothing gets swept under the rug anymore. Hence the reason we are all here reading this article.

        I see your point about drawing attention to yourself and getting hurt worse, I never thought of that, thank you for pointing it out. However the suite mate opened the door during the act which gave her an opportunity for help if desired. According to this article the suite mate heard noises consistent with consensual sex such as moaning.

        • Matt_Staples

          Numerous cases where females have lied about rape? The FBI reports that false rape reports are consistently below 10%. Therefore wouldn't it be more prudent to believe it as true than as false. Its not a conspiracy, its the truth. The prosecution doesn't work based on facts, it works based on easy convictions. Sexual assault cases aren't easy and therefore rarely prosecuted.

          • wyldstallyns81

            10% of how many cases reported? I dont have the statistics but if 1 million cases are reported each year, 10% would be 100,000. 100,000 would be a large amount constituting the usage of the word numerous.

          • lr2010

            If she made this up, why would one of the players admit to doing it, and apologize?

          • http://twitter.com/MeloWorld M. Litkouhi

            The US Department of Justice reports that false-reporting of sexual assault remains at 2-3%, which is no different than any other felonious crime.

          • Anonymous

            Yeah, no. It’s been regularly cited between 40-50%.

          • Anonymous

            Yeah, no. It’s been regularly cited between 40-50%.

          • LaRouge

            Thank you Matt, for that refreshing and thoughtful response. Wow, this thread isn't JUST self-important trolls after all.

          • Anonymous

            And the Air Force found it to be between 40 and 60% in the mid 80s. Most independent widespread studies find it to be in the 40-50% range.

          • Anonymous

            And the Air Force found it to be between 40 and 60% in the mid 80s. Most independent widespread studies find it to be in the 40-50% range.

        • Ghede

          “I see your point about drawing attention to yourself and getting hurt worse, I never thought of that, thank you for pointing it out.”

          You have the luxury of never having had to think about it. Chew on that one a moment.

          Meanwhile, god knows how many rapes a year are going unreported because women know damn well they face the likes of people who think like you if they dare speak out.

          It makes me sick.

          • Logic25

            Nobody wants a woman to hide a rape or fear speaking out, but these are such ballsy and accusatory statements toward men in general. Please do not chastise posters you perceive as men because a young woman may or may not have been raped. I wonder what the false accusation percentages are for celebrities and athletes? Might be a touch higher than 10%…Whatever happened in that room was shady, but on whose part we do not know. It is just as plausible that the young woman was a little unsure of what she wanted. It is everyones right to say no, but a pep talk and an undecided is not no, nor rape. I would hope that any woman in the supposed situation would take advantage of a witness coming into the room with a vigorous passion, as I assume anyone would if they felt their life was in danger. It's called fight or flight syndrome, not indecision and now embarassment. If I was violated for an hour and then reached safety, had the courage to contact the authorities and several media outlets I would hope that I would come away with more than I don't know, maybe some justice? I would be screaming from every roof top, these are college ball players, not back alley hunt you down and kill you thugs. If she was raped, go get justice. This sounds more like a girl that regrets her decision, or indecision, and regrets it even more that numerous people (suitemates, etc) know that she was the one in a sex scandal with 2 players

          • Ghede

            Ever been raped? It's not “fight or flight.” It's “fight, flight or freeze.” I froze. You might hope that any woman in that “supposed” situation would cry out, but I can tell you, that's a lot easier said than done. It's lovely attitudes like yours that make it so unbelievably hard for a woman who has been raped to come forward in the first place. I know that I never did because I didn't want to face people like you.

          • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_OU2U5RZUK22CFOQICX2AI4UVD4 Fake

            Take your probably-untrue, attention-grabbing “I was raped but I didn't report it bullshit” and shove it. Your cowardice does not necessarily constitute the same for the so-called victim in this case.

          • MSU_NAVY

            None of us knows what did or did not happen in that room. Let's please remember the Duke Lacrosse player scandal a few years ago. We all rendered them guilty in the court of public opinion to the extent that the prosecutor pursued the case with no evidence. He was eventually disbarred for negligence and the players were exonerated. Let's not jump to conclusions. If there is a case to be made, hopefully it will go forward, but until it does let's extinguish our torches and put down the pitch-forks.

          • Ghede

            You know, I *wish* it were “probably untrue.” That would have been a lot nicer than the reality of it. And so you know? It's not cowardice. I am and was more courageous than you'll ever know. You, with your heartlessness and utter lack of empathy, you are the problem, not the solution. So go on, go back to the cave you crawled out of. I don't claim to speak for everyone, but I know I'm speaking for a lot of people when I say we don't need you here.

          • LaRouge

            Fake = Troll. Good choice of names!

          • http://anita-writ-in-water.blogspot.com/ Anitanola

            Fake, you don't know what you are talking about. Women do get raped and don't report it far, far more than can possibly imagine. It happened to me and I was terrified and froze. I hoped to survive. I did. I was nevertheless traumatized and never really got over it. I didn't tell anyone about it for sixty years. Open your mind on this subject.

          • MrBaller24

            how many women tramp around in dark alleys and parking garages, by themselves, half drunk, and willing to play strip-basketball with strangers.

            in this case, they guys were strangers. She knew where to find them, and what their names were. She put herself into a very dangerous position, making every single bad choice imaginable and everything she did came across as flirtatious and consenting until (according to a suspects statement) halfway through the sexual escapade.

            i doubt the millions of women who get raped each year, which you are alluding to, reacted a whole lot differently to getting raped than this girl did, which the report makes it sound like she was less comfortable with bothering the guys than stopping herself from being raped.

            doesnt add up.

          • http://merrymiddlegirl.livejournal.com/ Kay

            Just because a woman flirts, doesn’t mean she wants to have sex.

            Just because she plays a game with some guys by herself, doesn’t mean she wants to have sex.

            Honestly, a woman shouldn’t have to police her every action for fear of being raped. I should be able to take a shortcut through an alley without having to worry about rape. I should be able to hang out alone with a guy friend without having to worry about rape. It is not 100% up to women, or to men. We should be working together to stop rape from happening, not working to accuse women of asking for it, or putting themselves in bad situations.

          • Anonymous

            “Honestly, a woman shouldn’t have to police her every action for fear of being raped.”

            You’re right. Women should police their every action because it’s called being personally accountable for one’s own well-being. If a KKK member walks through the Bronx shouting racial slurs it’s his own fault for getting his ass kicked. Don’t want a beating dont be an ass. Dont want raped, don’t put yourself in a bad situation in the first place.

          • Anonymous

            Millions of women do not get raped each year. Whoever told you that needs to stop drinking the radical feminist kool-aid.

          • Anonymous

            Millions of women do not get raped each year. Whoever told you that needs to stop drinking the radical feminist kool-aid.

        • http://merrymiddlegirl.livejournal.com/ Kay

          “According to this article the suite mate heard noises consistent with consensual sex such as moaning.”

          I know that I’ve moaned in ways that could be mistaken for pleasure when I’m actually in quite a bit of pain. It’s possible that her mouth was covered in someway. For instance, it said she was pinned, so perhaps her face was in a pillow or pressed against the mattress?

      • Mich_Mess

        Michigan Messenger will have a defamation of character case on their hands if they keep this up. There are only 8 black players on the basketball team (MM “forgot” to cross out the race of the accused in the police report) and the number of black players with tattoos on their forearms (another thing MM “forgot” to cross out) is limited. Even worse, one can guess the length of their name by what was crossed out and one can assume that the accused are not freshman if they have known their suitemate for 3 months. If anyone knows any players that live in Wonders, they're automatically suspects. This is not fair to any of the players on the team, especially since no charges have been filed. This is poor journalism. Police reports are not meant to be posted as “news” on a public website even if they can be received from the FIA. Anyone can go to the police and make a report about anything- that doesn't make it true or newsworthy. If I was any one of the black players on the team, I would sue MM collectively ASAP and win.

        • Ghede

          “I would sue MM collectively ASAP and win. “

          No you wouldn't, it's a public document. You're as knowledgeable on media law as many rape apologists here are about sexual assault.

          • Mich_Mess

            All 8 black MSU basketball players could sue the Mess for libel. The police report is a public document. No where in the PR does it say the accused are basketball players. MM is saying the accused are basketball players. If I'm Korie Lucious (who was obviously previously engaged getting a DUI that night), I could sue MM for suggesting I committed rape, so could all the black players. Look it up, buddy.

    • Genessender

      Uh, “Wyld stallyns,” if you read the report, she was intimidated by the size of the players, and she made herself heard enough that the player who confessed stopped assaulting her (and the other kept on). Also, the prosecutors have said she made a solid case, particularly with the player's confession.
      So she communicated quite well; it's apparently you who don't want to hear what she's saying.
      Also, if the sex was consensual, you say that would make her a “slut;” so you have a few bigoted judgments about women's sexuality already, hm?
      But thanks for sharing your expertise on how women should handle sexual assault; I'm sure you're an expert on the subject, right?

      • RedCedar147

        If she made a solid case, as you suggest, why didn't they go ahead and charge the accused?

        • nina_bruja

          This is the important question we should all be asking, and that the prosecutors should be answering with a better answer than “there was not enough evidence”. That is the jury's job to decide.

          As Matt Staples noted above, “The prosecution doesn't work based on facts, it works based on easy convictions. Sexual assault cases aren't easy and therefore rarely prosecuted.” That is currently how many prosecutors in our country view sexual assault cases, but that is not how it *could* or *should* be.

          If enough people in our community are as horrified and angry about these prosecutors' lack of action as many on this thread seem to be, then perhaps we will see some community mobilization and justice for this victim and many other future victims.

          • Brobraham Lincoln

            “That is the jury's job to decide.”

            So, your point is that prosecutors should not make a decision about their liklihood of success prior to filing charges?

            That is so wrong. I understand that this case is provacative and emotional, so maybe it is better to discuss your point in a vacuum.

            Hypo: You come home from work to find a person carrying your television through your front door. You are struck with a moment of bravity, and you shout: “Hey! I'll break your skull!” Your neighbor hears the incident, but sees nothing. The person drops your television, shattering it, and runs directly to the police station to file a complaint on you for assault. The prosecutor choses to ignore evidence of the person's presence in your house, the shattered television, etc. and instead focuses only on the person's recitation of the incident and your neighbor's recount of the “I'll break your skull comment.” He files charges.

            Rightful?

    • spartan_spirit

      The most common response to sexual assault is “freeze”. We only hear about “fight or flight”, but the third more common action is to “freeze”. It's like when deer see head lights and don't move in the middle of the road. It's a defense mechanism, so just because someone doesn't scream at the top of their lungs, doesn't mean it isn't raped. Particularly if you feel like your life is in danger, these guys I'm sure were quite a bit larger than she was.

      Yes, I do agree it's all about communication, and she clearly said “no”. By law, “coaxing” her under the influence is considered rape. It's just as much the guy's responsibility to make sure there is consent, and if it's a blurry line then all parties should just stop.

    • Ghede

      Shame on you.

    • LaRouge

      No, it is NOT that simple, I doubt you have ever been raped. To suggest such is ignorant, misogynist, and hateful. And, as was said earlier by Emily Syrja, COERCION IS RAPE. PERIOD. Under the law of the good ol' U S of A. This isn't just popular opinion, folks. Don't spew bile about things you don't understand.

      • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_XIKH3UY3FAU6UOMPKOP4KXTNOU Konstantin Koverchenko

        Coercion is rape. Period. But convincing someone is not always coercing someone. This, of course, is not to suggest that the players didn't coerce her. They very well may have. But we don't know.

    • p_e_s

      thanks, wild stallion! as a silly woman who never has to think about things like rape, being shamed as a slut when the dudes will claim “she wanted it!”, being hit by them or by some crony friend of theirs who'll enter upon hearing me, i never thought of screaming! how stupid of me! i'm glad you came along, with your relevant experience & knowledge in this persistent topic, and lectured me on what i should have done. your name should be WISEstallion hahaha :-D

    • http://anita-writ-in-water.blogspot.com/ Anitanola

      No, you irresponsible, unpleasant boy, people like you will say she was screaming with pleasure. You are as bad as brutes you are defending. Take some lessons in human decency.

    • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_ZIKSZKM7BQGYYCZSZSVK73T4Q4 Sylvia

      Wow. Way to go rape apologist. Reactions to rape are as varied as the individuals getting raped, and it isn't always possible to scream when a man twice your size is pinning you down. False rape reports are actually lower than false carjacking reports. Go back to watching Fox News and being a part of the uneducated mass you jackass.

    • http://twitter.com/DarthMarion Marion Delaunay

      Have you any sense of decency?

  • RedCedar147

    Why was my comment deleted? This “newspaper” is a total joke. I said nothing that was untrue or incorrect.

    • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_SEFGURGY2STZKF4LXJGCEACIJU jcugolf

      Neither did they.

    • ebrayton

      There was no comment deleted. This is the only message that you've left. There is no other message from you in the system.

      • RedCedar147

        OK, that's odd because I typed it, hit submit, and then when I checked the page later it was gone.

        In any event, my original post basically said that this is a non-story. The prosecutor reviewed a ton of information and witnesses (not just the police report, which can be very one-sided) in determining not to press charges. Stuart Dunnings III is definitely not afraid of charging MSU athletes with crimes, even if the victim doesn't want to press charges (see the Rather Hall incident). I think that's a pretty good litmus test of whether there was any possibility of there being a crime. So the Michigan Messenger goes and FOIA's a police report, interviews the victim, and interviews a school counselor (who doesn't have all the facts) and tries to pass this off as “news.” What a joke. Call me when there is an actual crime being prosecuted. All this “story” is going to do is drag people through the mud unnecessarily.

        • Matt_Staples

          Ad hominium again…a school counselor? Do your research. Until you produce a MSW and work in the field of sexual assault research and survivor treatment for years, her opinion is much more valuable and trustworthy than yours.

          • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_OU2U5RZUK22CFOQICX2AI4UVD4 Fake

            It's hominem, you fat and pimply fuck. Still paying women for sex these days Matt?

          • LaRouge

            You'd know all about paying women for sex, don't you.

        • http://twitter.com/emilysyrja Emily Syrja

          Charging athletes with crimes is one thing; charging anyone with a sexual crime is something that authorities are often reluctant to do. You see this case as illegitimate because no charges have been filed, but this article implies (and I would agree) that, given the police report and the victim's statements, it's absolutely ridiculous that charges WOULDN'T be filed.

          Furthermore, the source interviewed is not a school counselor; she's a staff member of MSU's Sexual Assault Program. That means she is extremely educated about sexual assault and its implications, while police, prosecutors, and the general population are not.

          • RedCedar147

            The prosecutor is educated in the law, and he made the determination that under the law no crime was committed. He and his staff also saw a hell of a lot more evidence than just reading the police report, which is all that the Sexual Assault Program Director did. He then made the following determination:

            In a statement dated Sept. 14 and released on Friday, Dunnings says charging a criminal sexual conduct case “requires the element of force and/or coercion.” He said numerous prosecutors of both genders reviewed the case report and “none could find any of these necessary elements.”

            What more is there to discuss?

          • Matt_Staples

            You can obviously read so you were able to read the part of the police report about there being force and coercion I would expect? I quote
            ” One of the men allegedly blocked the doorway to the room, while the other “cornered” the victim in the room.

            “[The victim] explained to [detectives] that the body language of [the players] suggested she was not free to leave,” the report says. “[Redacted] was blocking any escape path to the exit of the dorm room. [The victim] stated that after [redacted] approached the door he turned the lights in the room off and the room went completely dark. At this point, the sexual assault began.”
            You are really quite naive to believe there are no political underpinnings here. I bring you back again to law, do you think there are never multiple interpretations? I guarantee you I could bring this case to any number of law schools and have professors agree that there is more than enough here to go forward with prosecution.

          • RedCedar147

            I know that is what is in the report. The report was quoting the victim, and the prosecutor may have determined later that the victim wasn't being entirely truthful. Why don't you ask Stuart Dunnings? He is an elected official after all.

          • Matt_Staples

            Hopefully he won't be for long. Why do you so blindly believe an elected official who has a history of horrible work more than a victim? Do you blindly trust all public officials this way? I'm begging to understand why our country is in such a sad state of affairs.

          • RedCedar147

            Tell me more about this “history of horrible work” or did you just pull that out of thin air. Also I like how you are blindly trusting the horribly one-sided story of some blogger over someone that is actually accountable to the public via election and his status as an attorney. I'm sure Dunnings knows he would be burned at the stake politically if this girl was actually raped by MSU basketball players and he didn't file charges. Which is why this story is a bunch of schlock.

          • Ghede

            Remember a few years back when the wrong man was sent to prison for killing a LCC professor, even though video evidence that never made it to the jury would have shown he wasn't to blame? Putting the wrong man behind bars made the DA look good, but putting the wrong man behind bars also allowed the real killer – a serial killer – go on to kill how many more women? Seven? Eight? There's one example for you.

          • RedCedar147

            Also you give no credibility to Dunnings, but you believe every iota of the police report without questioning it? I thought you said we shouldn't blindly trust public officials?

          • NannyPants

            Hey, genius, Dunnings was the genius who pursued charges on Claude McCollum for the murder of Carolyn Kronenburg, with no physical evidence and only a coerced confession to go on. One of his underlings took the fall for it. Meanwhile, while Claude was in jail for a crime he didn't commit, 5 more women were murdered in Lansing. So, yeah, Dunnings has a record of mucking up cases.

            http://www.lansingstatejournal.com/article/20100728/NEWS01/307280030/1001/news

            http://www.wilx.com/news/headlines/18677229.html

          • Brobraham Lincoln

            Wait. So you are point to a story where Dunnings prosecuted without enough evidence to support an argument that he likely failed to prosecute here with sufficient evidence?

          • Be_Be

            Amazingly, screw-ups don't always screw up in the same exact way.

          • Brobraham Lincoln

            Maybe true, but you'd agree that it is rediculous to assume someone screwed up in one way because he once screwed up in a completely opposite way: i.e. He screwed up once by moving ahead without enough evidence, which is sufficient for me to assume that he probably screwed up here by refraining from moving ahead even though he had enough evidence.

            Tough sell.

          • NannyPants

            I think being a shitty prosecutor is enough in itself. Dunnings has a record of refusing to prosecute cases of sexual assault in which participants had been drinking; he has a record of choosing politics over protecting Ingham County, as with the murder case, where he rushed to do the politically popular thing (lock someone up) over the tough thing (admit they didn't have a suspect yet). Again, he's choosing to do the politically popular thing (sweep this case under the rug) over the tough thing (let a grand jury weigh the evidence).

          • Brobraham Lincoln

            Fine, but that isn't what the commenter to whom I was replying said.

          • Genessender

            Let's discuss the obvious questions: What's the prosecutor's connections to the school? Does he have a motive to protect the school's reputation? Does he not want to take on a case if there's a chance he could lose, causing him political damage, so he had his underling go a little rough on the victim to back her down?
            Prosecutors are notoriously political (and often corrupt, to various degrees); find out what this guy's connections and motivations are and you find out why he deep-sixed a case that others are calling an obvious case for prosecution. Or more clearly: Why he's letting two rapists (one confessed) go free and leaving justice undone for the victim.

          • Matt_Staples

            I was beginning to believe I was the only sane person left. Thank you both for your posts. Dunnings is a horrible prosecutor and the only reason he has lasted this long are people like red cedar 147

          • Scott084

            Yes, let's look at the ties of prosecutor Dunnings to MSU. Oh, wait, here's his bio.

            http://www.tncp.net/Articles/tabid/1800/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/779/Default.aspx

            “Mr. Dunnings III is a graduate of Amherst College and received a Juris Doctorate from the University of Michigan Law School.”{

            Oh yeah, I see strong connections to MSU — NOT.

          • jdblue82

            Naive. Just because he didn't graduate from an institution does not mean he has no connections to it.

  • randomhero7499

    To respond to the fact that this is low level journalism I would point you to the watergate investigation. Had any charges been filed in that sense? Would you call it low level to report that there were no WMD's found in iraq, even though no one responsible was ever charged with a crime? Simply put, it is a weak response and an ad hominium response. To respond to those of you who say she should have screamed and is just regretful of having sex with two men, have you ever been attacked in a hostile situation? Say someone of great power and respect was attacking you. Keep in mind that this person would be at least twice your size and much stronger. Would you even be thinking about screaming? If someone mugged you would you hand over your watch and wallet or fight back and risk serious injury? I fear your cowardice would extend to the situation the same way it extends to publishing ignorant comments on this page. You are, like the many before you, seeking to blame the victim because its more comfortable, its easier than the truth. If you've read the article, and not through your biased glasses, then you would see this is a cut and dried case. I can see, however, that for you it is easier to blame the victim, to throw her asunder, than it is to accept the truth that a beloved institution (and I love MSU basketball, i've been to every final four since 2000) can, from time to time, have bad apples. These men are to be held to a higher standard than the general public, not lower. They are role models for our children and young adults. To let them get away with such a heinous crime sends a distinct message to the youth of our state. Abuse and take advantage of a helpless person and you will not only be forgiven, but will be absurdly supported. I am truly sorry for you if you fail to see the pain and trauma that this incident has caused the victim. The rate of false report cited by the FBI is very low, and therefore it would be more prudent to accept her case as true than as false, but as I can see from reading the prior three posts, prudence is not a value much admired here.

    • RedCedar147

      Ha, you're comparing this nonsense to the Watergate investigation and the War in Iraq?

      Look, noone is saying that the police report was false. What I am saying is that the police report doesn't have all of the facts. The prosecutor had all of the facts available including those in the report and chose not to pursue the case. Just what kind of vast conspiracy are you trying to prove here buddy?

      • randomhero7499

        Nonsense? What if it was your daughter? Would it be nonsense then. And don't kid yourself. The prosecutor doesn't have all the facts. The prosecutors office makes decisions on what is easy to win and what isn't. Clearly your experience with the legal system is limited. The reason they don't move forward with cases like this is because they are afraid to lose. If they lose their stats go down and they look bad. Thats why there aren't as many sexual assault cases tried. The prosecutors office lacks the courage to do what is hard. I'm sure that you think that the prosecutor reducing the victim to tears is a reasonable practice too. Read up on how the justice system works before commenting again. It has nothing to do with facts, it has everything to do with prosecution rates and politics.

        • RedCedar147

          Clearly you don't know much about Dunnings. This guy has made it one of his missions to go after MSU students and especially athletes. If this case had any legs at all he would have brought charges just to get a plea even if he couldn't get a conviction.

          The reason why this is nonsense is because there are two sides to every story. The Messenger just interviewed the victim and released the police report, they didn't interview any of the accused players. Police reports can be very biased. Obviously if this girl was raped or assaulted that would be a horrible thing and I would be the first person to denounce it. However, it's not like this wasn't investigated thoroughly.

          In the US you should be innocent until proven guilty. In this case the players haven't even been formally accused and yet you think the players are guilty by default!

          • Matt_Staples

            I'm not saying they're guilty, i'm saying that this young woman deserves her day in court. Clearly you don't know about Dunnings. He has botched several high profile cases, and the prosecutors office doesn't even release SA conviction and hearing rates. He has said in the past that he refuses to prosecute any SA case involving alcohol. Now, that doesn't sound anything like a bias does it? In there being two sides your correct, but the thing is one of the players shared his side and corroborated the story. So if you would be so kind as to show which side hasn't been addressed i'd love to see it. Maybe some kind of magical 3rd side?

      • http://profiles.yahoo.com/u/KWJ4UFNKXXDRSFBOUFL7BL56UE michael

        RedCedar: briefly, your statement re: the “prosecutor having all the facts” vs. the detectives who worked the case is simply incorrect. There is no factual evidence which prosecutors go out and unearth. All of their actual facts come from the detectives and the police who work the case. Period. Not to be condescending, but I assume you're not an attorney. The only “facts” the prosecutors in this investigation have that the detectives do not have are the prosecutors opinions of what kind of witness the accuser would make on the stand, and what the political ramifications would be of a.) bringing this case, and b.) bringing this case and losing. and those are not facts. Those are professional judgments.

        Also, if you don't think prosecutors are notorious for their unethical behavior, i would refer you to the ABA Model Rules of Professional Conduct, which has an ENTIRE RULE dedicated to prosecutors due to their history, collectively, of unethical practices. Prosecutors are the only type of attorney with their own special rule- criminal defense attorneys, for example, who are obviously their adversaries, do not have their own rule. Take it from an attorney with many prosecutor friends: the decisions on major cases are ALWAYS political first.

        For reference: http://www.abanet.org/cpr/mrpc/rule_3_8.html

        And yes, Michigan has adopted the Model Rules of Professional Conduct.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_F3DRLAI6ZG7B3MGHVWMYREGQJQ Mack Long

    Can't we wait until after the season?

    • Matt_Staples

      your right, basketball is much more important than a young woman's life

      • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_F3DRLAI6ZG7B3MGHVWMYREGQJQ Mack Long

        Thank You for being practical. Some responders would have been sarcastic.

        • jdblue82

          Practical would be thinking of justice before thinking of the scoreboard. Which is not what you did.

      • msu2010

        Exactly. Mack Long – I'm a HUGE basketball fan but basketball and basketball season are nothing compared to a serious allegation like this. Do you really want to cheer for and support a basketball team that includes alleged rapists? What does that say about you?

        • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_XIKH3UY3FAU6UOMPKOP4KXTNOU Konstantin Koverchenko

          Apparently you missed the joke.

  • 1dolemite

    Something tells me that is the guys in question were athletes from a different school, maybe in Ann Arbor for example, you'd be signing a different tune. Innocent until proven guilty? Of course. Above scrutiny, publicity and ridicule for being animals–no.

  • Scott084

    Very interesting. This writer is all but accusing the prosecutor of covering this up for some sort of political reason.

    Either the prosecutor should be jailed, or else this writer and this blog and its donors should be sued by the players involved for every dime that they have.

    It will be interesting to see how this shakes out, and what kind of response the prosecutor gives to this blog.

    Oh, and this writer is obviously part of the University of Michigan community. I don't suppose he could have an agenda, could he?

    It's worth noting that the prosecutor has no love for MSU athletics, and is pretty vigorous to put it mildly in prosecuting such cases.

    The fact that he said – in public – that there is no case here speaks volumes.

    But I wouldn't want facts to get in the way of this blogger.

    • RedCedar147

      Exactly. We're supposed to believe the story from this “news” source that I have never heard of until today instead of a well-respected elected official. Yet you read most of the other posts on here eating every word of this schlock.

      • Matt_Staples

        well respected? by who? The legal community that he has constantly upset with his shoddy prosecutions? Elected does not mean well respected

        • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_OU2U5RZUK22CFOQICX2AI4UVD4 Fake

          1. Matt, you're from Metro Detroit. You don't know dick about Dunnings, stop pretending like you do. A couple of searches in the LSJ doth not an expert make.

          2. The Michigan Messenger is a less-than credible news source, and it would not surprise me if they were pushing this story for exactly this reason: all of us commenting means more ad revenue on their site.

          3. With that said, it would similarly not surprise me if these men were guilty. However, I prefer that facts come to light before everyone picks and said and we have rabid feminists like that ugly Syrja lady and fat male-apologists like Staples jumping on the “they must be guilty because they're athletes RAWR” versus the ill-informed sports fanatics “he can't be guilty because he was a 5 star recruit RAWR.”

          All of you need to shut the fuck up and reserve judgment until you hear about this story from a reputable source that doesn't use the word “allegedly” twice per sentence, lest you too would like your name dragged through the mud in this way if you were falsely (or properly) accused of a crime in the future.

          • Matt_Staples

            you might want to check your facts before insulting someone. Otherwise you sound like someone spouting off about something you have no information in, like where I live, which is not metro detroit. By the way, resorting to name calling is the lowest form of discourse, which is why this will be my only response to you. Make a reasonable point and then maybe we can talk

          • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_XIKH3UY3FAU6UOMPKOP4KXTNOU Konstantin Koverchenko

            He did make a reasonable point. Read #3.

    • http://twitter.com/emilysyrja Emily Syrja

      He's “part of the University of Michigan community”? If it even occurred to you that someone would write an entire article about something as serious as sexual assault because of a sports rivalry, well … that's pretty messed up.

      • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_X4SGFIUFPCYBUGXYO4IKLKTN3I Kyle

        You accused an elected official of not prosecuting a for sure rape case because of MSU athletics you moron. What, it's ridiculous that a no-name writer for some random ass news site that no one has ever heard of to write this because of sports, and yet a prosecutor would drop a case because it involved basketball players?

    • Michael_Heath

      Scott084 stated, ” this writer is obviously part of the University of Michigan community. I don't suppose he could have an agenda, could he?”

      No story like this would be published without a thorough vetting from the editor(s).

      • Scott084

        This is a joke, right Michael? You wrote that as if this is a newspaper. Please, on what newstand can I pick up a copy.

        This is freaking BLOG, pal. Wake up!

        • Trajan8

          When you get a moment, please join us in the 21st Century.

        • PapaWord

          Scott, that's pathetic…you rant about what trash this is by claiming the writer is nothing more than a blogger with no facts who must be part of the “Univ of Mich community”, with none of your own facts at all about the guy and his background. Upon checking, he actually went to Lansing Comm College and lives in Lansing. Your cred left the building with that statement. Practice what you preach before sounding like a fool, my brother.

          • Scott084

            He's in Lansing because he is the “Capitol correspondent for the gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender publication Between the Lines.”

            He's also not a real journalist, as he lacks a bachelor's degree.

            And the last time I checked, the city of Lansing is full of Wolverine supporters, including, I would imagine, people who have plays produced at the University of Michigan Basement Arts program.

          • jdblue82

            “He's also not a real journalist, as he lacks a bachelor's degree.”

            A bachelor's degree does not a journalist make. Journalists are those who collect and disseminate information about current events, trends, people, and issues. Simply because such news is disseminated online or via a smaller entity (or both) does not invalidate the news or the journalist. The quality of his journalism matters more than the lack or possession of a four-year degree.

  • thk334

    Well maybe if the athletic department didn't turn their heads at the sexual assualt compaint against two basketball players this past summer, maybe there wouldn't be a second victim. Is there a cover up going on?

    • Scott084

      You're not really catching on, are you? THIS IS THE SAME INCIDENT.

      “Second victim?” Hoo-boy.

      • thk334

        Nope, two different incidents

        • Scott084

          That is not correct.

          • thk334

            Yes scott that is correct. There was an incident this past summer involving 2 baskeball player and a complaint was made to the athletic department and nothing was done. Then incident in August, two different incidents

          • msu2010

            Actually there was another incident earlier in the year. Two separate incidents, two separate groups of basketball players.

      • msu2010

        Probably more than 2 victims.

  • dudereally

    flat out sick…. police do their jobs then the da's office blows it… great job lansing da officer blow holes.

  • cc423

    So Bouck is pro rape. Good to know.

  • tee02

    I also think it is very interesting that your paper seems to be the only one reporting this story. I'm embarrased for our criminal system and I hope MSU's sports program had nothing to do with the decision not to prosecute.

  • instant1

    This person sounds like they were victimized several times, by players and law enforcement. I hope she receives counseling. She is so young to deal with this and probable doesn't realize that if she wants to be at peace in the future, she must be strong and stand up for the truth of the night regardless of the outcome. Wonder how the coach would feel if it were his daughter going thru this sad and scary event. If the justice system could do their jobs, the coach could do his.

    • http://twitter.com/dantoad d s

      She can do whatever she feels comfortable doing, whether it be counseling, prosecuting, or not talking at all. It's her decision, and we should give her the power to make it. The rape was not her decision, and she deserves to have her decision-making ability not infringed on by others, whether it be by commenting on what she “should” do or by abusing her body.

      • instant1

        If you reference is to my statement that she must be strong and stand up for the truth, I did not mean to imply prosecuting. I hope she stands up to her reality and doesn't ignore what she went thru. Yes, she deserves the right to choose disclosure to others or not. It concerns me that at this young age she may not realize how much talking it out with someone may help. And my understanding is that legally, not even her family needs to be contacted. I just hope she is not dealing with this alone.

  • SteveW1776

    Thanks for doing the investigative reporting that apparently the MSU State News and the Lansing State Journal are too afraid of. A Freedom of Information Request and a few phone calls is lighting the path to the untold truth. The new facts in the article that have not been reported include the comments from Shari Murgittroyd, program director for Michigan State University’s Sexual Assault Program, who said she is surprised that prosecutors did not issue arrest warrants in this case. “I’m in shock. After hearing what was in the police report, I am amazed charges were not issued,” Murgittroyd said. And the fact the MSU player collaborates the victim’s statements in the police report so its not a he said versus she said situation at all. And the unbelievable fact the statements made by the prosecutors office and the victim are in conflict. The victim said. “I really don’t think she asked me if I wanted to (prosecute).” Justice is not always easy or swift but it’s good to know someone has the courage to dig.

    • RedCedar147

      All the program director did was read a police report and make comments. All the Messenger did was FOIA a police report and interview the victim and the program director. The prosecutors did a whole lot more investigating and determined there was no crime. It's not like these guys unearthed a smoking gun!

      • Matt_Staples

        your ignorance, by this point, has grown tiresome. If you have no new, valid, points please stop wasting our time. You don't know any of this. There is no more information. What kind of magical information do you think the prosecutor had? Tell me, other than the police reports and victim statements, what else is there? Is he god, did he rewind time and watch it through his magical crystal ball? Prosecutors don't do investigating, thats what the police are for. They process information. They take info from other people and make a decision. The prosecutor has the same info as everyone else. So stop, your wrong, you've been proved wrong so many times its not even enjoyable to do so anymore. This is the information. You can read it all yourself. The police report and any relevant statements is all the prosecutor gets to go on. Pick up a book on law before your next post. There is a reason the cops have a badge and a gun and the prosecutors don't.

        • RedCedar147

          So the police report is the only evidence? How about when the prosecutor interviewed all of the witnesses and got their testimony? The suitemate? The players? How about any questions asked and answered during those interviews that aren't included in the police report? How about the assistant prosecutor getting the full story from the alleged victim who was not able to tell if it was not 100% consensual? How about the fibers, used condoms, and other physical evidence obtained at the scene? Speaking of which, do rapists typically wear condoms? Or tell their suitemate about a girl they just raped? This story is totally full of holes and we don't have the entire story. The prosecutors did and they are in a better position to make the call than you or I. End of story.

          • Ghede

            “Speaking of which, do rapists typically wear condoms? Or tell their suitemate about a girl they just raped? “

            Well, if you knew anything about sexual assault and its prosecution, you might know the answers to some of these questions.

          • SteveW1776

            The answer is no not typical but yes rapists have been known to wear condoms. And yes it is common for criminals to tell others of their crimes. Get ready for the following. Grand Jury. Civil Lawsuit. Wait until the notices of depositions go out (AD, Pres. Simon, Coach Izzo, all the players, assistant coaches) and the requests for production of documents (emails, text messages) and the world will get a close look at how an “elite program” is really run. Unless this matter is settled ($$$$) look for it to be in the news for years and years. The wheels of justice turn slow. Just ask OJ.

          • SteveW1776

            A police report with findings and a recommendation, a victim statement, physical evidence and a collaborating statement from one of the two involved (the other person involved was uncooperative) is reasonable support to proceed to a preliminary hearing (evidentiary hearing), to determine whether there is enough evidence to require a trial. At least that is how it is supposed to work. Expect a civil suit real soon naming MSU, the players involved, and anyone else the lawyers can think of. Just ask Ben and Kobe about what happens when the DA decides not to prosecute.

  • freedomrocker

    i'd like to redact my last comment. that is the rumor that i heard. i have no proof to back that up and i am not making any allegations on anyone who did it. numerous people live in wonders hall. everyone is innocent until proven guilty.

    i just have a friend who told that me but i have no idea. so i don't quote me on it.

    • RedCedar147

      Then you should go back and edit or delete your comment to remove the names. You aren't doing anyone any good by perpetuating unfounded rumors.

      • SteveW1776

        Funny but MSU has never denied or even hinted the rumors were unfounded. BTW its not slander or libel when its the truth. Check the 1st Amendment.

        • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_OU2U5RZUK22CFOQICX2AI4UVD4 Fake

          HAHAHAHAHAHAHA…hold on….HAHAHAHAHAHAH. The word slander does not exist in the first amendment, you fool. Go back to your Tea Party rally.

    • Scott084

      You're either an idiot or a liar, or both.

      If you wanted to “redact” your last comment, then you'd simply edit it out.

      What a sanctimonious idiot.

  • freedomrocker

    there is no way to delete a comment or i would

  • jdblue82

    The real story here may just be the number of idiotic men who have no clue when it comes to matters of sexual assault, not an ounce of compassion when it comes to victims of sexual assault, and an overabundance of defensiveness when it comes to accusations of sexual assault.

    That and how this young woman deserves her day in court, but I see the Messenger has that part well in hand.

    • Anonymous

      Do you take the time to think of the number of women that may put them self in such a situation to seek retribution on men? especially those of stature?

      It goes both ways. Bottom line is we do not know enough to point the finger one way or another.

      • jdblue82

        Right, because one of the accused confessing to the crime in a police report isn't enough proof? Come on.

        • Anonymous

          He did not confess to a crime… read it again.

          • jdblue82

            Clearly you have a different definition of crime. I figure standing by while your buddy rapes somebody probably constitutes at least a felony, don't you? This is why there needs to be an investigation, rather than a dismissal after finding out the victim might break down under a brutal cross-examination in court, which seems to be the basis on which the DA's office made their determination. At least according to the victim's statement and the DA's unwillingness to provide any further concrete details for their reasoning to not pursue charges. Aside from the equivalent of, “Some people in the office didn't think we could get a conviction on it so we're not going to try.”

          • Anonymous

            I am not saying rape occurred… nor did his buddy. It was not a confession.

          • jdblue82

            If, as the player said in his statement, sexual contact occurred after she said no, rape occurred.

            Either way, the allegations are serious enough and the statements strong enough to have allowed the police to get a warrant to search and sieze evidence.

            That indicates to me that charges should be filed or an explanation provided.

          • Anonymous

            “coaxed” back into it… again a willing participant. who knows.

            i would reply to your other posts but the website is not allowing it… i am merely giving the other side w.out passing judgment on anyone but rather giving a skeptical view.

            looks awfully familiar to duke’s lacrosse team and everyone knows what happened there.

          • jdblue82

            If she had to be coaxed back into doing something, that indicates that at some point she was an unwilling participant. I appreciate the skepticism, but it's important to remember that any time alcohol is involved and you don't know the other person, it's best to avoid sex at all.

            Both parties to this incident would have benefitted from this. Now, the only thing that will bring any resolution, in my opinion, is bringing this before a judge (and a jury, if it gets that far) to mete out some measure of justice.

  • http://twitter.com/Slicknickshady Nicholas Richardson

    BS. This girl lied to you. No crime happened. No charges were filed. Non-Story. For your hack of a blog to run with this is despicable.

    • jdblue82

      If she lied in a police report, she could be charged with making false reports. If that's the case the conviction rate on those is unbelievably high. The DA would have her roasted on a spit.

      If she says a crime happened, why not let charges be filed? Why not let her have her day in court?

      • http://twitter.com/Slicknickshady Nicholas Richardson

        Not a victim. The False Accuser. Get it right.

        • http://twitter.com/emilysyrja Emily Syrja

          How can you be so sure? The entire point is that NONE of us are sure and that there should be prosecution so that we can determine whether or not this occurred.

  • atty2222

    As a woman and a criminal defense attorney….. There is a reason a police report is not admissible in court. First being, the players statement that police say corroborated the victim's, may not really have corroborated the victims. In actuality, the police officer heard the statement assuming a crime happened and wrote it the way he “heard” it, not the way it was said. Second, I guarantee you, that Prosecutors dont prosecute cases based upon probability of success, but solely in whether they believe there is probable cause (lower standard than beyond a reasonable doubt needed to convict). If no charges were filed, its because the prosecutor's believed that what happened was likely consensual. Just because its a sexual assault crime, doesn't mean that its impossible that the woman lied, and doesn't mean that the two men had the intent to rape her, or thought that she wasn't consenting. Its a tough situation, but the young men's lives shouldn't be ruined because of it.

    • Anonymous

      Interesting hearing it from the point of view of a criminal defense attorney. Thank you for sharing.

    • ABDFF

      Thank you for your informed opinion. This is why lawyers and courts decide cases and not the media. Unfortunately the vast majority of posters here want to string these guys up because of this article alone without having all of the facts.

    • jdblue82

      Due respect to your law degree here, but if there's any indication that these men committed sexual assault, there needs to be a full and transparent investigation. If nothing else, it would clear their names (which the Messenger has withheld, I might add) and could highlight the penalties for making false statements to police. If the evidence holds, then this woman gets justice. If not, she gets justice too, just of another sort and directed at her.

    • Be_Be

      Dunnings saying that he couldn't find evidence of force or coercion is not exactly the same thing as saying that he believed that what happened was likely consensual.

      Also, as I said to another commenter upthread, if I had a nickel for every time someone online claims to be something they're not (like an attorney), I wouldn't have to work for a while. Which isn't to say you aren't, just that you can't prove that you are, and as such, your comments here should not be taken as having any more gravity than anyone else's.

      PS- To theskeptic4u, see my comment here about taking atty2222's assertion of being an attorney with a grain of salt, note that you took them at their word, and now note that, if you are only skeptical of people who disagree with you, you're doing it wrong.

      • atty2222

        No evidence of force/coersion means consent to some extent. And I can prove that I'm an attorney, since I happen to be one.

        In fact, the only reason that I commented to begin with is because I deal with prosecutors everyday, and I defend innocent people everyday. It is very frustrating to deal with the public, where juries come from, who believe is someone is charged with a crime, they must be guilty. Here, the young men were not even charged with a crime, and many are assuming they are guilty and that the woman is a victim.

        • Be_Be

          How can you prove you're an attorney in an anonymous online forum like this one?

  • atty2222

    I'd also like to point out that the fact that people think prosecutors only prosecute the cases that they have a high liklihood of winning is why a lot of people think anyone charged with a crime is guilty. Let me tell you this is 100% false, and I hope that you never have to be falsely accused.

    • jdblue82

      There's a lot of evidence here that indicates this is not necessarily a clear-cut false accusation.

      • bthsides

        There are a lot of statements here that indicate this is not a false accusation, but there is no evidence.

      • atty2222

        There is actually no evidence here. All we have knowledge of is an inadmissible police report. And, I never said it was a false accusation. In these type of situations without direct, concrete evidence of force/coersion, its hard to say what the truth is. But a possibility, especially if the young woman was moaning, is that the two young men thought it was consensual because she never resisted.

        OR, its also possible she did consent. Either way, there is no evidence that we are aware of that justifies ruining these young men's lives. Everyone involved has a lesson to learn.

        • jdblue82

          Until there's a court case, nothing's admissible. That doesn't mean there's not evidence, colloquially speaking. Being as she hasn't been charged with making false statements to the police, it seems like the case was dropped because the DA felt he was unlikely to secure a conviction. Pressing charges is the right thing to do here, even if it means these men are exonerated and the DA doesn't get to add another notch to his score.

  • bthsides

    As a victim of sexual assault at the hands of someone I knew I'm hoping my experience will shed some light on both sides. “Freezing” is very common…You're being traumatized and often your natural reaction is to survive. Sexual assault is violent regardless of the circumstances, so you do what you have to to survive, which could explain why she didn't fight or scream.

    One thing I have to wonder about is why there isn't mention of a trip to the hospital and a rape kit? The first thing I did after calling the police was make a trip to the hospital, which the police accompanied me to, but there is no mention of that in the police report or in the victim's statement. If there isn't a rape kit, the only forensic evidence is what they found in the dorm room, which could corroborate either side of the story. If the prosecutor doesn't have the physical evidence, all you have are two different stories. I'll bet the story the basketball player that initially corroborated with the victim, changed after the police report was taken and during the investigation. And like atty2222 pointed out, the police report reflects information assuming there was a crime.

  • http://twitter.com/DSea21 Dan Sears

    My two cents…
    I'm an avid Spartan fan and to hear this sort of news is incredibly sad. If any of it is true, I assure you Izzo will remove the players immediately. However, that being said…There SEEMS to be a lot of haziness surrounding this case. I'll try to be as objective as possible in painting this scenario:
    -Alleged victim goes from room to room having several drinks (POSSIBLY already impairing her judgment)
    -Alleged victim introduces herself to the two high-profile basketball players and after a conversation, agrees to go back to their room (possibly intrigued by the presence of two campus celebrities, the alleged victim agrees to go back to the players' room after having just met them and having only one conversation. For all intents and purposes, these two men are complete strangers to her)
    -The three started playing “strip” basketball (the alleged victim is a willing participant, evidenced by the removal of her shirt. This appears to be, by its nature, a very “sexual” game. The game is consensual.)
    -The three continue to play. The players end up completely naked (The alleged victim is apparently not alarmed up to this point. With all the facts considered in this article, the alleged victim remains a willing participant to this point)
    -One of the players allegedly blocks the doorway while another corners the alleged victim (If we are to consider the alleged victim's testimony factual, how can the player allegedly block the door? How does one “allegedly” block a door?)
    I could continue, but this post is already far too long. I can understand why the prosecutor's office would be reluctant to go forward with this case given the girl's own testimony. Defense attorneys are likely gifted at spinning testimony this way. If there has been any sexual assualt, I would be first in line to beg for justice. These kind of crimes are sickening, particularly when they involve a team I care so much about…
    And in reference to the comments about the other complaint filed to the Athletic Department this past summer and how it hasn't come out until now…There was no prosecution and hence no reason to tarnish the reputations of the players, the team, the coach, or the institution itself.

    • Anonymous

      Yea, that was pretty much my take on the story as it was told in the article.

      • jdblue82

        Right, I imagine that's how the scenario progressed, but you're forgetting something.

        Once the formerly willing participant becomes unwilling, if the sexual activity continues, it is sexual assault.

        Furthermore, just because she's drunk doesn't make it ok to take advantage of her. Many states allow for sexual assault prosecution if the victim is drunk or drugged, because if the implication is that she'd have to be drunk to sleep with them then it's not consensual.

        • Anonymous

          “Furthermore, just because she’s drunk doesn’t make it ok to take advantage of her.”

          Perhaps they are drunk too and no intent to cause her harm was in their head… you have already convicted them and taking the stand of ‘they are evil and intended on hurting her; she is victim’.

          You portray them as predators and it may or may not be teh case… we do not know. i just do not think it is that simple.

          • jdblue82

            I've never said the men are guilty. There's certainly a lot of indications they may be. All I've said is that charges should be pressed. There are worlds of difference between asking that charges be pressed (as the alleged victim is) and stating that the men are guilty.

            In addition, even if they didn't attempt to cause her harm, they're still responsible for their actions. Much like driving while drunk: if you run someone over, you're still responsible, even though you didn't intend to kill them.

            Let's let a judge and jury sort through this instead of letting the DA make the decision not to try the case.

          • Anonymous

            why isnt she responsible for her drunken actions… hey lets party, put it in, no dont, okay do it more, cry rape…

            i dunno. either way, hope everyone has learned a lesson. I am done with the thread as I have given this blogger plenty of hits to increase his ad revenue.

            take care and be safe.

          • jdblue82

            She is responsible. I think that's why she said stop and was afraid of the two men who were (as she noted) much bigger than her.

            Be well, and be careful out there.

          • Anonymous

            She did not say that (as we were told), it was the player making a comment in retrospect…

            K, really have to go.

    • msu2010

      She should be able to walk into their room completely naked and not be raped. Under no circumstances did she deserve what happened to her – drinking, strip basketball or not.

      • http://twitter.com/DSea21 Dan Sears

        I never stated that shouldn't be the case, nor did I insinuate it. My argument was that the defense attorney will have an easy time attacking her character given the way the events of the evening proceeded. And trust me, in any case involving sexual assault or rape, character is an important element. Now, if a girl walked into a room drunk and naked and is raped, it is an incredible injustice. I am not one those people that argues “she deserved what she got.” However, that drunk and naked girl is going to have to explain her actions and obvious lack of judgment. Her character is going to come into question. Hence why the prosecutors are hesitant to take up this case. Certain “sexual” parts of the evening were consensual though, which people are failing to realize. This is another issue that makes it difficult for 12 people to come to agreement that a rape was committed.

        • msu2010

          Alright. I understand your point and agree with many of your counter-arguments. I really do respect your opinion and appreciate your disgust/sadness, which is a lot more than I can say for a lot of these other assholes commenting. However, you need to understand that being in this sort of situation and attempting to leave is not as easy as you may think. I understand that there are reasons that the prosecutors office would be reluctant to go forward, however, there is also a lot of evidence that can't be dismissed.

          Also, who are you to say that there was or wasn't a complaint earlier this summer? Why is prosecution necessary? Especially considering that even in cases like these (where there is TONS of evidence) it is extremely difficult to prosectue.

        • musicahumana

          “I am not one those people that argues “she deserved what she got.” However, that drunk and naked girl is going to have to explain her actions and obvious lack of judgment.”

          Uh… you pretty much just negated your first sentence with your second. This is like saying, “Well, sweetie, I'm not one of those people who is going to blame you for your assault rather than the actual perpetrator, but come on, you must have done SOMETHING wrong!”

          The only aspect of “character” that has any bearing on this case is previously filed false allegations. If you truly mean what you say, you believe that everybody has the right to safety and nobody deserves to be assaulted. Not if they have consented to other things. Not if they wear a short skirt. Not if they are under the influence. Not if they have a “questionable sexual history.” Not. Ever.

          • http://twitter.com/DSea21 Dan Sears

            Yet another example of someone putting words in my mouth. Actually, I did not negate my point, nor did I blame the alleged victim. Your analogy is completely inaccurate. My point was that the defense attorneys are going to prey on the victim's behavior. Besides that though, the alleged victim exercised a lack in judgment when she went to the room with two men she didn't know. Now, should she be able to go to a room with two men she just met after having several drinks without expecting to be raped? In an ideal world, yes, she should be able to do that. But where do we live? Fantasy land? If anything, I hope this experience has taught her to use better judgment in the future. Had they grabbed her off the street and raped her, this would be a different story. However, that's not the case. Are you willing to admit that she used poor judgment throughout the evening? That's what my argument is asserting.

          • musicahumana

            Dan: I see that you are a person who is very much against sexual assault. I understand that you don't like it, you don't want it to happen, and you really do want all of us women to be safe.

            Here is where problems happen: you say that, had they grabbed her off the street, this would be a different story. But for our purposes in this discussion, it wouldn't be a different story at all, because everyone would still be telling her that she really shouldn't have been out in x place at x time by herself when she really knew that it wouldn't be safe.

            So where do we hide, Dan? Where is the magical place that women can stay and be safe from rape? The reality is that most women do live by a rape schedule, planning very carefully to avoid situations where we might “get ourselves raped” as some might say. Do you think that we'll make things better by keeping women inside, at home 24/7? Some of us are just plain tired of not having as much freedom as men, and we don't deserve to be punished as a gender for exercising the freedom that we are entitled to.

          • http://twitter.com/DSea21 Dan Sears

            musicahumana: I respect your opinions. They are valid arguments. Your feelings certainly do resonate. However, I meant in THIS SPECIFIC case, the girl used poor judgment.
            In general, however, I think situations like this could be more easily avoided (not entirely) had the alleged victim acted differently. You're confusing my explanation for why she should have used more caution and why women should always exercise some caution. This is the world we live in. And rape is something that happens on college campuses. I'm not asking you to hide and I'm not suggesting in every situation you are always safe from some whacko that is out raping innocent women. But, in this particular case, the woman applied a severe lack of judgment in her actions. Is she to blame, if she was indeed raped? No, absolutely not. Could it have been avoided? Likely.

          • musicahumana

            I'll admit, I'm on the defensive. Because my friends have been raped and assaulted by men they thought they could trust, in their own homes, I can't imagine that any special effort we make will make a difference in the number of rapes that occur. If a rapist is present and wants to rape us, we are pretty powerless to stop that person. Please forgive us for not wanting to waste time on what victims could have, should have done, and using our efforts to stop rapists from raping.

            I appreciate your honesty and sincerity throughout this thread. I can only hope that you are helping us to fight the good fight against sexual assault in your own way.

  • digitalteen

    I'm from Canada, and don't really hear a lot about Michigan, but this is disgusting. If this had happened up here, the players would both be persecuted, legally and socially.

    • Anonymous

      Canada.

      lol.

      • jdblue82

        So now we're denigrating a person's opinion based upon where they come from?

        • Anonymous

          It was a joke.

          • jdblue82

            So are your arguments justifying rape.

    • http://twitter.com/Slicknickshady Nicholas Richardson

      You are a joke. No crime was committed. You want to prosecute innocent people.

      • jdblue82

        If they're innocent, how come the alleged victim hasn't been charged with making false statements to police?

  • ThisIsSparta33

    If you act like a ho you will be treated like a ho. You can't walk into a tiger's cage holding a big juicy raw steak and and not expect something that you didn't intend to not happen to you. You put yourself in that predicament in the first place. I wish I could go to a party or a club wearing nothing but a speedo grind up on some high profile girl, then after we start getting a little familiar I can just call out “rape” making a name for myself. If you mean “NO” then say it LOUD AND CLEAR, or maybe not only that, but also DRESS THE PART!

    • jdblue82

      So, you're okay with getting raped if you dress in a sexually appealing manner?

      • Anonymous

        Not what the poster said…

        • jdblue82

          You're right. He said he's okay with *someone else* getting raped if they dress in a sexually appealing way.

          “You can't walk into a tiger's cage holding a big juicy raw steak and and not expect something that you didn't intend to not happen to you.”

          He also suggested she should “…DRESS THE PART!” if she didn't want to be raped.

          • SunlessNick

            And as always, it's rape apologist who compares men to uncontrollable wild animals.

    • Be_Be

      Oops, hit “like” when I meant to hit “reply.”

      And the reply is:

      Yeah yeah. Men are animals, women are their prey. And women are responsible for men's actions by how they dress. Like we've never heard that before.

      But, if men can't be expected to control themselves, why do we let them in public? Animals are supposed to be kept on a leash, or indoors, both for their own protection and for ours…why don't we apply the same rule to men?

      (HINT: It's because men aren't animals and CAN control themselves, but as long as such behavior is excused with what is essentially the “boys will be boys” argument, they have very little incentive to actually do so.)

    • LaRouge

      Classic victim-blaming. Your logic is flawed. She didn't walk into a tiger's cage with a steak, she was at a social event with lots of other people. And to compare the 2 men involved to tigers is an insult to tigers everywhere.

    • ThisIsSparta33

      Just stirring the pot folks. The truth is… none of us know the full truth. We have people who are ready to sign a death sentence when they were not there and they do not know the full facts. In all honesty… it doesn't matter if they are basketball players or not. If they are truly guilty of rape, then they should be booted off the team and thrown in jail. And no, I am not condoning rape, or saying that it is “ok to rape if she is dressing slutty.” Of course my words were “harsh” but only on purpose. IF the girl is not being clear about her intentions or her desires, then how can it be considered rape. If it is true that she was moaning “in a pleasurable way” it would not be fair for her to call rape just because she regrets her own actions leading to what happened. On the flip side: If it is true that she was clear with saying NO and she did not want things to happen before they did, then yes it is rape, and those guys should face the full consequences. And in regards to the “tiger cage analogy,” the girl (or all girls for that matter) really do need to be smarter. If you dress certain ways and act in certain ways to lead on the “dumb animal males” then what do you expect to happen? Would you walk around a Blood neighborhood in all blue? A Crip neighborhood in all red? Would you go to an NAACP rally in white bed sheets? You are responsible for your own safety to some degree. Putting yourself in unsafe and bad situations is an invitation to trouble…(Clear and Present Danger). Of course no one wants to get raped, just like no one wants to be beaten to death. But mixed or unclear signals can lead to misunderstandings and even further problems.

      What do you know about what happened? What do I know about what happened? What do any of us know? NOTHING. Let the investigation take its course.

  • BethA614

    Anyone with a brain knows there is enough evidence to press charges. You even have one player saying he stopped because he knew she didnt want it, but the other player continued. For the one idiot that basically keeps saying “the lawyer knows cuz he's a lawyer”, that doesnt mean anything. I know it's not based on a true story, but have you ever seen Law Abiding Citizen? Stuff like that happens everyday because attorneys are out to make a name for themselves. And in this case, it sounds like the attorney is just trying to make this go away because of who the alleged suspects are. If they were just normal people, they would be behind bars as we speak. Also, it sickens me when males try to say “well she didnt say no” or “well she didnt scream”. That is a traumatizing experience and most rape victims keep quiet for two reason 1) fear of their life and 2) wanting it to be over. This prosecutor is a prime example of why many females do not report rape. They feel they will only be victimized again and in this woman's case, she has been. Just because she went back to the players room doesnt mean she had intentions of having sex with them, and doesnt give them the right to rape her. When I was in the dorms, I hung out in guys rooms, but it was to hang out and have fun. The attorney is wrong, the players are getting away with rape, and another victim is left feeling victimized by the system. I can guarantee that due to this case, the number of females reporting their rape will drop. You have a crooked politician to thank for that.

    • Anonymous

      amazing how clear cut it is for you to “see this”… I suppose Duke’s Lacrosse team was guilty as well in your eyes.

      Where is the evidence? Rape kit? Bruises? You’re right, TONS of evidence.

      Objectivity takes a backseat.

      • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_OU2U5RZUK22CFOQICX2AI4UVD4 Fake

        Thank God. I swear everyone has forgotten about the Duke situation and how those players are still fighting to get their reps back after rabid feminists and the quick-to-judge tried them and found them guilty in the court of public opinion well before the real Courts found out the accuser was full of shit. I know not whether or not these players are guilty, but I can tell that this situation will work out in exactly the same way.

    • elena9986

      couldn't agree more, well put.

    • http://twitter.com/Slicknickshady Nicholas Richardson

      There is not. Dennings even said there is a lot that is not in the police report and will never be made public. That makes me think the girl is full of crap. The victim? please. More like. The False Accuser.

    • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_X4SGFIUFPCYBUGXYO4IKLKTN3I Kyle

      Did you seriously just imply that ANYTHING in a fucking Gerard Butler movie is even remotely factual? Stuff like that does not happen, nothing in real life even remotely resembles Gerard Butler movies.

  • elena9986

    Does it even sound like she's trying to make a name for herself? Can you imagine how hard it was for this girl to come forward with her story after the prosecutors basically told her she was a liar?? ThisisSparta needs to show a little class.. what this girl went through was horrible and to top it all off she actually had the courage to report the crime and got shot down by the prosecutors because they were afraid of losing the case. It's complete bull. I don't know how she'll ever get over this but I sure hope that she gets the justice she deserves and that these boys get what's coming to them in the end.

    • http://twitter.com/emilysyrja Emily Syrja

      Exactly. Some food for thought to everyone who thinks she's doing this to draw attention to herself, or so she doesn't look like a slut: if she hadn't said anything, no one would know who she was, and it would have all blown over. If this had been picked up for prosecution, on te other hand, she would have opened herself up to criticism and scrutiny. (Some of you are already providing that, but fortunately, her name was not released.) Who in their right mind would go through that for a lie? Anyone who thinks that people allege that they've been assaulted in order to improve their reputations obviously doesn't realize what hell victims are put through when they come forward.

  • BethA614

    And to ThisisSparta above, you are exactly what is wrong with the world. First off, you dont even know what the female was wearing. Second off, just because you go to hang with someone doesnt give them the right to rape. Instead of placing blame where it should be placed, the males in this case, you place is on the female. Guess you just showed the pig that you really are. I hope someone rapes you then you can tell me if you tried to say no. It's really easy to speak when you have no clue what you are talking about.

    • http://twitter.com/DSea21 Dan Sears

      “I hope someone rapes you then you can tell me if you tried to say no.”

      BethA614, you lose all your credibility with statements like these. You would really wish the same harm on someone that you are trying protect others from? I'm afraid you are exactly what is wrong with the world…

      • http://anita-writ-in-water.blogspot.com/ Anitanola

        See how easy it is to bully women, Dan Sears. Aren't you proud of yourself. BethA614 did not lose credibility in that exchange but you surely did.

        You are playing the same old game the guys always play. The ones who rape and call it consensual. You use ridicule, shaming, lying, solidarity with the guys, persuasion, a little force and if that's not enough, a little more. Then if you're caught out, you lie some more and enlist some help from your buddies to smear the victim. It's not difficult at all. If a girl tries to defend herself or accuse you, rinse and repeat. Do you really think well of yourself? Your rape apologia in this thread is sickening. You should be ashamed.

        • http://twitter.com/DSea21 Dan Sears

          I'm finding it more and more difficult to respond to these emotion-driven responses. BethA614 did lose credibility, I assure you, when she wished the same harm on others that she sits here and pretends to protest against. She is a hypocrite if she wishes rape on others. Surely you can see that? You should be ashamed in your attempt to justify her stance. When have I ridiculed, shamed, lied, or done any of those things you wrongfully accuse me of? I have never defended rape on this thread and never will. I doubt you even read my response thoroughly before you posted this. You have already made up your mind about my arguments and have lowered yourself to trying to tarnish my name by associating me with other rapists.

  • BethA614

    Theskeptic for you, it's not letting me reply so I am tying this here. There is a BIG difference between the Duke case and this case. I, for one, never felt those boys did anything and turned out to be right. In this case, you have a player who has confessed that they did something wrong. That he knew she didnt want it and stopped while the other continued. That is a confession. And a confession ranks right up there with physical evidence, actually higher. So before you speak, you should maybe go back to school and learn something.

    • atty2222

      You don't know that he confessed. Dont hang a person without having been there. All we have is a person's interpretation of a HEAVILY REDACTED police report. All police reports DO NOT tell the truth! That's why they are not admissible in court!

  • wiseaboutmsu

    The real problems here is that the MSU Police have absolutely zero credibility. They have embarrassed the prosecutors office so often that everyone in the process knows they are totally unreliable.

  • http://twitter.com/Slicknickshady Nicholas Richardson

    There was no crime committed idiots who are saying these kids will get whats coming to them. Innocent.

    FREE BLANK AND BLANK shirts need to be made.

  • http://twitter.com/Slicknickshady Nicholas Richardson

    Todd A. Heywood is a joke. I have more journalism credentials then this guy. I got a degree in Journalism from Spring Arbor University. A Private College. This is BAD Journalism.

    • NannyPants

      Hey Nicholas, in what major Michigan news outlet can we read your work?

      • http://twitter.com/Slicknickshady Nicholas Richardson

        If i wanted to start a blog like this i would. This isnt a news site.

        • NannyPants

          Actually, it is a news site. With very well respected counterparts in DC, etc.

          Perhaps they don't teach this at Spring Arbor U, but producing content only on the Web doesn't make a site a “blog.” Please see the online-only news site: Slate.com, Salon,com, Gongwer.com, MIRSnews.com, etc etc etc.

          • Anonymous

            Perhaps what he meant is the “author” showed very little journalistic integrity and took offense to it because the way the story ran is no more than loose gossip.

          • musicahumana

            Because a police reports is TOTES loose gossip!

  • RobSpartanMan

    Michigan State has now become the new 'U' Move over Miami Hurricane. It's our time now to romp, stomp, commit crimes, beat people, rape women and steal electronics!

  • Jack_Cade

    Fellas, if you ever have sex with a woman and afterwords she says it is rape, well then you might be a rapist.
    Coercing some girl who is a little drunk to drunk, to have sex with you and your buddies is stupid enough to earn you a rape charge.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_7Z42VN5WLOSASRBUAJDOKW2F64 Matthew Lofton

    Ok, first off, people need to get off of the “it does not matter what she wears or her actions.” In no way does any of these things excuse rape, but if my daughter in the future and dresses as a ho and goes to a club (if she actually lives to get out of the house), you can be damn sure that sometime in the next day, after comforting her, would be the statement “why the hell did you wear what you did? You were inviting something bad to happen.”

    It is like the West Wing episode when Zoey goes to a bar and starts talking to guys (the President's body guard eventually intervenes and the secret service comes in). Afterwards, while the President was sympathetic to his daughter, he chided her for 1). Being at a bar underaged and 2). Flirting with those guys.

    All I see from those statements is a lot of gray area. The player may not have corraberated what the alleged victim said, just said “We made bad decisions. We should apologize to her.” I think everyone here CAN AGREE there was a whole lot of bad judgement used by all in this situation.

    And, like was said here, she was acting as if she was, at least at the beginning, opening to whatever was happening to happen. At what point did she say no? What happens if she said no at the most inopportune time (you know what I mean)? You are just supposed to stop everything on a dime and shake hands and amicably end all relations or it is rape?

    And, what you all must realize, if these guys are charged and go to court, these guys cannot be declared innocent, just not guilty. And no matter the outcome, there will still be a large “I do not believe the jury, something must have happened” crowd. Look at the whackos who still believe that lying whore (with a past and is currently in jail. Not to mention, how in the hell was she not competent to stand trial but a year after the case ended, received a criminal justice degree…). The case dragged on to long anyways. Ignore the DNA that clearly pointed to innocence, and the ever-changing Crystal Gail Magnum stories, why did it not simply come down to someone saying, “Geeze, it is not possible for three lacrosse players to do what she accuses them of doing in a bathroom in that house.” Yet it took a tie-breaking vote months MONTHS later by a committee chair to bring ethics charges for Mike Nifong's OBVIOUSLY inappropriate qoutes in the media, but I digress… Heaven forbid prosecutions use caution after the lying whores of Crystal Gail Magnum and Tawana Brawley. Real rape victims advocate have no one to blame but these high profile cases of gold-digging whores (Magnum and the Kobe accuser).

    Finally, we do not know all of the evidence. But, does anyone think it is a little strange for her to go to police and then say “I don't want to press charges.” If she really was afraid of these kids getting off if they are guilty and does not want the attention, wouldn't she just not go to the police in the first place?

    Bottom line, bad judgement has been used by all. But, I do not believe there is enough evidence to even begin to assume this was anything but incredibly bad judgement. Again, to those who cry “Let her have her day in court,” if charges are brought, they can only acquit the men in court and even more people than there are now will cry “SOMETHING HAPPENED.”

    • http://twitter.com/DSea21 Dan Sears

      I agree with you in that people who cry, “Let her have her day in court!” tend to oversimplify the aftermath of a case of this magnitude going to court. The people involved (i.e. lawyers, police, school officials, etc.) have a responsibility to protect the reputations of both parties. It's never as simple as “letting her have her day in court.”

      • SunlessNick

        “Again, Kobe used extremely bad judgement but rape, I do not think so). ”

        Really, because Bryant himself said: “I now understand how she feels that she did not consent to this encounter.”

        And since there's no conceivable way that Katelyn Faber could have consented without realising it, in fact what he's doing there is admitting his guilt. So how exactly is she a liar?

    • Johanna_Grimes

      First, I hope to GOD you don't have a daughter and never will. What kind of father would blame his own daughter for the disgusting and heinous acts perpetrated on her no matter what she was wearing, drinking, or any other reason? Clothing choices, alcohol consumption, walking alone, flirting, etc are NOT invitations for a man to rape a woman.

      Second, to answer your question of what happens when she says no at an “inopportune time (you know what I mean)?” YOU STOP! If you don't, YES, it is RAPE. When no is said and the act continues, that is rape, no matter when it's said.

      The bad judgment here was not in what the survivor did or didn't do. The bad judgment was that of 2 young men who thought they were entitled to have sex with a woman who said she didn't want to, and even hit one of them when he didn't stop.

      • Anonymous

        congrats on completely believing everything the author wrote without even caring to hear the full story or remain objective by any sense…

      • Anonymous

        End of the “non”story…

        http://wynd.me/3Z0GM

      • http://twitter.com/Slicknickshady Nicholas Richardson

        You are a blind sheep Johanna.

        • Johanna_Grimes

          Baaaaaaaaaa :)

        • musicahumana

          I'd love to know, is she a blind sheep for placing the blame on perpetrators of crimes and not the victims? Or was it the defense of an individual's bodily autonomy and right to refuse sex?

    • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_Z536YHLGZ7W73QHKD5DZXIKPLI Julia

      Actually, anti-rape advocates have people like you to blame for these crimes not being taken seriously. People who excuse the men's criminal and predatory behavior, blame the victim and put the burden of proof solely on her shoulders.

      Your use of the term “whores” clearly shows your stance on women. Period. They are all lying, gold-digging/attention-seeking whores. Couldn't be that she turned to the media because her story was being buried by the Prosecutor's office. (On a side note: did you even read the article, or did you stop when you found out they were basketball players? She said she was never asked if she wanted to prosecute. Besides, it is not, nor has it ever been, up to a victim to decide if prosecution goes forward. Once the police report is filed, it is the sole discretion of the Prosecutor's Office.)

      So it is MEN like you, men who will NEVER understand what women go through when they are victimized and preyed upon that are to blame when shit like this happens. You don't get it, and without a lot of effort on your part you never will. Rape is NOT a case of “bad judgement”, it's a case of physical predation by a perpetrator against a victim, almost universally male vs female. You make me sick.

      • Anonymous

        And what about it being consensual, her changing her mind, and then consensual again? Do you prosecute for the two minutes she did not want to have sex and ignore the 58 minutes she did?

        Its men like us… yadda, yadda, yadda. and its women like you that jump to decisions without hearing the entire story before determining guilt or innocence.

        Who is to say this senior status student (21 or 22 years old) was not out preying on 18 year old freshman? Who is to say the police report is garbage since it is merely the alleged victims account.

        We simply do NOT know and there is a reason the prosecutor did not further pursue it. Just like there is a reason this second rate blog site is running the story with vague terms throughout the loosely written article to generate traffic to their site. Don’t you think a real news outlet would have picked this up if it was actually something? Get real.

        By the way, the burden of proof does fall upon the victim because you have to prove the guilty as such.

        • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_Z536YHLGZ7W73QHKD5DZXIKPLI Julia

          I never said men. Women, regrettably, can share your misogynistic views on rape and violence against women. What I said was “people like you”. The fact that you immediately assumed I meant men is another clear indicator of your misogyny. I actually *believe* a woman who said she was raped. Clearly I just hate men.

          When it doubt turn it around right? These poor, defenseless young men are victims! Victims of this TERRIFYING woman whom they outnumbered two to one.

          Someone has to take the opposing argument to your blind intolerance. If it were up to people like you (both men and women), rape as a crime wouldn't exist unless a man reported that his wife/daughter/sister/mother/etc was raped. Because if it were up to people who take stances like you, women would still be chattel.

        • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_Z536YHLGZ7W73QHKD5DZXIKPLI Julia

          There is such a thing in this world called “enthusiastic consent”. Maybe if people focused a little more on having a partner who genuinely and eagerly wanted to fuck them, we wouldn't be debating the merits of what is consent.

          She said no. It should have stopped the second she said no. Coercion and persuasion are not sweet and romantic. They are compromised consent. They are rape. Plain and simple.

          • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_XIKH3UY3FAU6UOMPKOP4KXTNOU Konstantin Koverchenko

            Coercion, itself a specific form of persuasion, is definitely rape. Outside of the coercive form of persuasion, persuasion is not rape.
            Scenario
            Man: “Let's have sex.”
            Woman: “I don't know…”
            Man: “If we have sex, _______.”
            “…you might have fun because I'm awesome at it.”
            “…you'll be able to brag about having sex with me because I'm really popular.”
            “…I'll cuddle with you afterwards.”
            “…I'll buy you nice things.”
            “…it might bring us closer together.”
            Woman: “Ok!”

            All of those are non-coercive forms of persuasion. They might be strange or immoral for different reasons, but it would be silly (not to mention insulting to real rape victims) to say that the woman was raped by being persuaded into sex.

            Now take this example.

            Man: “If we don't have sex, _______.”
            “…I'll hurt you.”
            “…someone else might get that promotion.”
            *no words, but threatening facial expression*
            “…I'll say bad things about you to others.”
            “…I'll kill myself.”

            These are all coercive examples. The first is a direct threat. The second and third are implied threats. The fourth is blackmail. The fifth is emotional blackmail. If sex occurred in any of these cases, it's unambiguously rape.

            Although, I'd still prefer having a partner who genuinely and eagerly wants to fuck me. Where can I get me one of those?

      • Johanna_Grimes

        THANK YOU!!!

  • luvtobike

    This case has received a lot of sideline judgment here which mean little. This case deserves to be tried by a jury of peers to determine the facts, weigh the evidence, and determine guilt or innocence. It's worthy of bringing forth to a trial. The victim, perpetrators, MSU, and society at large deserve this. It's up to the prosecutor to demand justice for all.

    • Scott084

      Tried by a jury of his peers?

      Since the prosecutor has determined that no crime was committed by ANYONE and that no one was even arrested, you know that nobody is going to be tried.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_7Z42VN5WLOSASRBUAJDOKW2F64 Matthew Lofton

    See, why the hell can't you people understand that why no one deserves to be raped, women who dress like hoes invite unwanted attention. In this case, I would not be blaming her, I would make it perfectly clear though she made a bad decision and you were inviting horrible things to happen.

    It would be like me keeping an unloaded gun in my house not locked up and my kid playing with it and shooting it and killing a friend. I guess, in your warped way of thinking, it is solely the kids fault. Alsom I advise you to take a 1,000 dollars and wave it around and let everyone know you have it in East St. Louis and see what happens. Cause heaven forbid I would point out you are an idiot for doing this.

    I guess you also defend the Jets reporter who was offended by lewd comments, yet she dressed like a hootchie in a professional atmosphere.

    As for the gold-digging whore comments, I pointed to Crystal Gail Magnum and the accuser in the Kobe Bryant case. What evidence do you have to the contrary.

    And, for those pushing for her day in court, let me remind you. The Duke lacrosse FALSELY ACCUSED (Let me emphasize that because there is still whack jobs who believe they are guilty) went through absolute hell for a year in a case that was obviously clear these guys were innocent after, at most, a month. In fact, Nifong told the people around him that “we are screwed” before he even went into the grand jury room to get charges.

    And might I remind you about Duke, one of the accused dad's developed juvenile diabetes (a man, just before the case broke, had a physical and had a complete clean bill of health) and a grandfather died because of the stress of this case. It took the ethics charges brought on a tie breaking vote and a defense attorney locking himself away for days, learning all he can about DNA, to unearth the fact the DNA lab was hiding evidence.

    Finally, how can these guys get a fair trial? With stories like these, and women who are dead set that a woman crying rape is telling the truth (that 10% lie is laughable at best. Other studies show some women have no problem claiming rape for revenge purposes or explain whereabouts). There would be a hung jury, at best. Also, if this goes to trial , THESE MEN CANNOT BE CLAIMED AS INNOCENT. JUST ACQUITED. The problem with “they have nothing to worry about if they are innocent, let them go to court” is that there is no garuntee with a trial. The defense attorneys in the Duke case were, rightfully so, no matter what the evidence (and every iota pointed to innocence), a guilty verdict would still come back.

    I am all about protecting women. But crying rape is no excuse to ignore all the bad judgements the woman made that night. Also does not help I followed the Duke case in depth from the beginning and have been SHOCKED at the defense Mike Nifong and Crystal Gail Magnum get to this day. Even more so, a study was done that the civil rights of Duke student's after the case have gone way down and that now, those accused of sexual assault, are basically guilty until proven innocent and really given no chance to defend themselves.

    BTW, when it does come down, be prepared for Duke to pay through the teeth to the lacrosse players in civil court…

    • Be_Be

      It would be like me keeping an unloaded gun in my house not locked up and my kid playing with it and shooting it and killing a friend

      Kids are not considered to be completely responsible for their actions. That's why they are generally tried differently than adults.

      Amazingly, men over the age of 18 are considered adults, and thus completely responsible for their actions.

      Women's bodies are not loaded guns. They are not juicy pieces of stake, or hundred dollar bills, or whatever bass-ackwards analogies people like you would like to use.

      Women's bodies belong to the women who inhabit them. Period. All decisions about how to dress them, what food and drink to ingest, and what and who may enter them (or not) sexually are to be made solely by by the woman who inhabits that body, and women should not have to dress in accordance with anyone else's sense of beauty, decency, or morality but her own and the law's. (And the law must be pretty clear, because you almost never hear about public indecency cases.)

      When a woman dresses in a way that you think invites sex, but later says “no,” it does not mean that she “made a bad decision,” it merely means that you thought her dress invites sex, and were wrong. There's not really any harm in that, as long as you don't go on to then rape her.

      But just so you don't have to face this potential embarrassment ever in the future- clothing never invites sex. It may be sexy, but that is different from inviting sex. The only thing that should be construed as a definite invitation to sex (as in, go ahead and get undressed (or not) and proceed) is a verbal “yes, let's have sex,” or something along those lines. In other words, explicit consent to sexual activity.

      (Amazing how many “gray areas” would clear up if we stopped thinking that women's clothing or beverages could consent to sex for them!)

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_7Z42VN5WLOSASRBUAJDOKW2F64 Matthew Lofton

    Again, so I make it clear, I am not blaming the alleged victim, but one part of this whole equation I do not get when it comes to rape, is why advocates do not push the danger that can be invited by a woman for wearing revealing clothing and choosing to be in the wrong place at the wrong time?

    • NannyPants

      That is victim blaming. Look up “victim blaming” and you'll find, “Well, that were you wearing?”

      To be clear, no one invites rape. Women (and men) have been raped wearing sweatpants, turtlenecks, snowsuits. Plenty of women have been out wearing short skirts and come home just fine. The problem isn't with what a woman wears — it's with the man who thinks he has a right to have sex with her whether she wants to or not. Men who will often then say, “Well, look at what she was wearing –she wanted it.”

      Here's a little hint: if a woman “wants it,” often she will say something like, “Yes.” If she doesn't “want it,” she will say something else, like “Stop,” or “No.” Or, in the case of this woman, she might punch you in the face.

      There are many surefire ways to tell whether a woman 'wants it,” and they involve her voice, not her clothing.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_J3NIWSN3TVVOMNKBZ45G3DE5C4 Pat Cannon

    Sounds like there is no question that there was sex. But was she held down while she said NO and throwing punches? Or was a drunk girl tricked into doing things she later regretted?

    It's the same old he said she said. Unfortunately for the girl, the suite mate doesn't help and their is no mention of a rape kit. For the Boys, I hope this is not another Duke Lacrosse situation.

    • bbconner64

      Yes there was mention of a rape kit you dumb ass. Read all the facts before you decided to share your stupid thoughts

  • MSU_NAVY

    None of us knows what did or did not happen in that room. Let's please remember the Duke Lacrosse player scandal a few years ago. We all rendered them guilty in the court of public opinion to the extent that the prosecutor pursued the case with no evidence. He was eventually disbarred for negligence and the players were exonerated. Let's not jump to conclusions. If there is a case to be made, hopefully it will go forward, but until it does let's extinguish our torches and put down the pitch-forks.

  • NannyPants

    That is victim blaming. Look up “victim blaming” and you'll find, “Well, that were you wearing?”

    To be clear, no one invites rape. Women (and men) have been raped wearing sweatpants, turtlenecks, snowsuits. Plenty of women have been out wearing short skirts and come home just fine. The problem isn't with what a woman wears — it's with the man who thinks he has a right to have sex with her whether she wants to or not. Men who will often then say, “Well, look at what she was wearing –she wanted it.”

    Here's a little hint: if a woman “wants it,” often she will say something like, “Yes.” If she doesn't “want it,” she will say something else, like “Stop,” or “No.” Or, in the case of this woman, she might punch you in the face.

    There are many surefire ways to tell whether a woman 'wants it,” and they involve her voice, not her clothing.

  • Mich_Mess

    The facts: The woman introduced herself to the men. The woman agreed to go to the men's room. The woman agreed to play “strip basketball”. This evidence alone makes coercion very, very difficult to prove.

    There are conflicting accounts in this report that contrast with the State News report from September 10. The State News report states exact names of students that lived on the floor and the account that they did not hear anything, this report doesn't mention names, but it does somehow provide quotes from neighbors. This article also contains second-hand quotes such as “we got this girl” and biased opinions including Heywood stating the report “proves otherwise”.

    One can deduce that the writer took 19 days to write a 1600 word article to grind an axe against athletes and presume individuals are guilty before being proven innocent. This writer has no journalistic integrity and this story can only be viewed as a pathetic attempt for Heywood to make a name for himself and the Michigan Messenger.

    • Anonymous

      Another interesting take on the author and unfortunate situation facing three college students.

      http://wynd.me/3Z0GM

  • http://twitter.com/Slicknickshady Nicholas Richardson

    Shes A False Accuser.

    • bbconner64

      You must be a benchwarmer trying to protect your boys

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_7Z42VN5WLOSASRBUAJDOKW2F64 Matthew Lofton

    I am done with you people. Rape is bad. I never excuse that and if it does happen, should be prosocuted to the full extent of the law, victims actions aside. And her actions should not cause a lesser crimed to be charged.

    But, regardless how you feel on this case, the woman made very BAD decisions. The men did too, but the women did. Why, oh why, is there not anyone out there going, “Women, probably not a good idea to goad a man your with to take off clothes and act flirtacious to bring what could be more unwanted attention to ones self.”?

  • atty2222

    I agree with you. Why is that some people believe that just men have to control themselves. And why do people believe that men need to be held to a standard where they must read women's minds regarding what they want and they don't want. If she didn't resist and in fact was moaning, doesn't it make sense that a guy would think she was doing what she wanted to do?

    A guy's life and reputation is supposed to be ruined because a girl did something she wasn't completely comfortable with, but didn't stop it?

    Attorneys are not as crooked as people like to think…..as much as tv tells you. And if anything, prosecutors are guilty of going after innocent people, not choosing not to prosecute guilty people. The police aren't trained the way attorneys are (State police and Feds notwithstanding), so any reccommendation by them really means nothing, especially an University officer.

    • NannyPants

      In what world does “Stop,” “No,” and “No, I don't want it,” constitute mind-reading? In what world does anyone think that being hit in the face by a person does not constitute an attempt to resist unwanted sexual contact?

      Here's a thought: when a woman is not willing or ready to engage in sexual activity, and said sexual activity happens anyway, it's not generally pleasurable. In fact, it's painful, and one response to painful stimulus is to moan. If you've ever heard a woman giving birth, you've likely heard moaning caused by pain but seemingly similar to sexual moaning.

      Here's another thought: it's attitudes like yours that promote tacit agreement with men who commit sexual assault. It makes sense why 1 in 4 women are the victim of sexual assault when so many men, and their apologists, believe they shouldn't have to “control themselves” by not putting their penis into the vagina of an unwilling participant, and should not have to “read the mind” of a woman who is saying “No,” “Stop,” or hitting them in the face.

    • Ghede

      “Why is that some people believe that just men have to control themselves. And why do people believe that men need to be held to a standard where they must read women's minds regarding what they want and they don't want.”

      You know what the really neat part about this is? They don't have to read minds at all. They just have to hear “stop” and then … stop. Simple enough that even a cave man can do it.

      And of course men have to control themselves and not break the law. I have to control myself on the highway and not get a speeding ticket. Big whoop.

      You're not really an attorney at all, are you? Confession is good for the soul.

      “If she didn't resist and in fact was moaning, doesn't it make sense that a guy would think she was doing what she wanted to do? “

      She did say no. And I suppose you've never heard of a moan of pain or a moan of agony, or the moan of someone who is crying or semi-conscious.

      • atty2222

        I am an attorney. I often am in court advocating for men who have been accused of a crime that is either, not clear cut, or is something that they did not do or intend to do. Maybe she told the truth, maybe she didnt. None of us knows what really happened, but the people in best position to determine what really happened decided that no crime occurred…..thats why no charges were filed, the prosecutor's decided that it was likely no crime occurred.

        I am a woman, I understand how horrible it is to forced to do something you don't want to, or to feel pressured. And I also know how horrible it feels to put yourself in a position where something happens that maybe you didn't want to happen, but you let happen.

        My biggest problem, however, is people persecuting and assuming these young men are guilty with no concrete evidence that they are, and when the prosecutors, whose job it is to determine if a crime occurred, determined not to file charges.

        • Ghede

          Honestly, I don't believe for a second that you're an attorney. Not if you think that somehow men have to read a mind to hear a woman say “no.” Not if you think that it's outrageous that people have to control themselves. Not if you think moaning equals consent. What law school taught you these things?

          Frankly, I give it about a 25 percent chance that you're a woman at all, much less a woman attorney.

          You offered elsewhere to prove your credentials. I have half a mind to take you up on that, just so I know who not to call should I ever need representation. But I won't ask, I respect anonymity on an Internet forum, even if I think the identity put forth is utter bull.

          • atty2222

            Yeah….you wouldn't want an attorney who would give you the benefit of the doubt if you were accused of a crime….

            Anyhow, what I said was, you're assuming her story is true. I'm not. I adhere to the principal of innocent until proven guilty. And I realize that prosecutors use a lower standard than that when determining whether or not to press charges.

            The truth is the prosecutors interviewed her and found holes in her story. Maybe she couldn't handle the interrogation & she was still actually telling her the truth, or maybe she wasnt. I'm just inclined to give a person the benefit of the doubt, especially one who wasn't charged with a crime.

            And I have no problem revealing my identity, I just don't think its necessary to prove myself to you or anyone else. And I went MSU for undergrad and for law school.

          • bbconner64

            Or the prosecutors head was filled bullshit lies from the athletic department to cover for there athletes and Dunnings got caught up in he said she said before uncovering the facts.Oh was anyone informed of a different sexual assualt on another female by two members of the baskeball team? NO? Thats funny. Everyone tried to brush this under the rug and make it go away. In reality what should have been handled in a court room is now left up to the opnions of the public. Wasn't the girl traumatized enough by these guys then she goes to the DA and traumatize her more and bullying her into a mutual decision that wasn't mutual. Hopefully all of the facts and the truth will come out and people will be exposed.

    • allgoodtees

      ((And why do people believe that men need to be held to a standard where they must read women's minds regarding what they want and they don't want. If she didn't resist and in fact was moaning, doesn't it make sense that a guy would think she was doing what she wanted to do?))

      All a guy WHO IS CONCERNED ABOUT CONSENT needs to do is say, “Hey, are you okay with this?” at any time.

      If she answers a clear, enthusiastic, un-impaired by drugs/alcohol, “YES,” then she's into it.

      IF THERE IS ANY OTHER ANSWER, OR EVEN ANY CONFUSION AS TO THE ANSWER, SHE IS NOT AND YOU NEED TO STOP AND CLARIFY.

      Compliance does not equal consent.

      If men were taught to assume that the default answer is NO concerning their “right” to a woman's body, there would be fewer men, especially college athletes who are being given all these incentives to play for this school or that school and believe they're entitled to so many things, including womens' bodies.

      But when sex is considered “scoring” and women are told that dressing like “hootchies” and “hoes” implies they are responsible for what men do to them when they “dress the part”, it erodes any hope for that happening.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_7Z42VN5WLOSASRBUAJDOKW2F64 Matthew Lofton

    What in the hell is wrong in telling women “Choose your dress and actions wisely. You may be attracting unwanted attention to yourself.”?

    I am not excusing rape. I am not saying a woman dressing like a tramp (her choice) invites being raped. If they are dressed like this and are raped, the perps should not be treated any less harsh because of a woman's action or dress. However, why do I never her advocates telling women “use your head, watch where you are and watch how you dress.”

    Rape is wrong, no matter how someone acts or dresses. However, should we suprised that a woman wearing the most revealing clothings and openly flirting with guys make them think sex?

    • allgoodtees

      Because women already know this. It's been drummed into our delicate little ladybrains since we were old enough to know what rape was. Oh, and even if we take care of ourselves the best we can? There's a good chance that we'll be raped anyway and, if we report it, we not only won't be believed, but hundreds of other men will come out of the woodwork and claim, “BUT WE DON'T KNOW WHAT REALLY HAPPENED, SHE'S PROBABLY A LYING WHORE LIKE THAT DUKE WOMAN.”

      You know what hasn't been taught to men?
      – To make sure you have clear, enthusiastic, unimpaired consent before sex with women

      – To make sure that, if you find a woman that's intoxicated, even a little bit, you don't rape her

      – To make sure that, if you see a woman that's intoxicated being taken “upstairs” by someone, you make sure the situation is consensual and looking out for your fellow men so they're not accused of rape

      – To assume that a woman's default answer is “NO” unless it is clearly and enthusiastically stated otherwise.

      – That women are people and not “gold-digging whores”, “bitches”, “pussy” and other demeaning, dehumanizing terms, and are deserving of respect.

      Until THAT message is drummed into men with the same “concern” that people are showing for women? You “concerned” men can shut the hell up.

      We know how we can try to protect ourselves, for all the good that it does.

      How about men exercise that same caution and not rape us? Oh wait, because they don't have to; chances are they won't see a day in jail or even the frowny side of a police investigation.

      • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_7Z42VN5WLOSASRBUAJDOKW2F64 Matthew Lofton

        Since you are putting words in my mouth, I will go ahead and put some in yours. Apparently, you would be fine for your daughter (if you have one) to dress in the lowest cut dress, showing as much skin as humanly possible. A man's mind turns to sex seeing your daughter? Imagine that…

        And save the womens lib crap. Women have no problems dumping on men for quite some time now. Now, it is pretty easy to see the media and women's lib blaming the white male for all of society's ills. There is considerable evidence that women have accused a lot of men for rape for money/alibi/revenge, etc… Not once, NOT ONCE have I heard anyone speak out against those who have just randomly thrown out false accuasations.

        As for my “applying blame” to women, let me remind you the number of people who wanted to throw INNOCENT DUKE LACROSSE PLAYERS under a bus when the truth came out, simply for hosting a party where in fact, nothing illegal happened. So you women libs have no problem throwing around accusations when men do nothing illegal but DONT YOU DARE question what women wear or what their actions were if they are raped.

      • musicahumana

        THANK. YOU.

        They may never get this through their thick heads, but we best keep trying.

        P.S. lolsob @ the frowny side of a police investigation

  • http://twitter.com/DSea21 Dan Sears

    To be fair, in reference to all the comments referring to the woman's moaning, the suite mate who was interviewed also said “it sounded like she was having sex and 'was not in any trouble.' ” Now, my interpretation of this quote would suggest that when the moaning is coupled with the statement “not in any trouble,” it means that the suite mate interpreted her moaning as somewhat pleasurable. It's difficult to interpret her moaning when coupled with the rest of the quotation to be moaning that might have been the result of pain or displeasure. Unless someone has a better explanation, I think it's fair to assume this..

    • msu2010

      Once again, the suitemate is also on the basketball team. Not to say that this makes it impossible that he would make a statement against his team member, but because he's also on the team it's more likely that he would tell a story that supports the perps and is conflicting with the information that the victim gave.

      • http://twitter.com/DSea21 Dan Sears

        Total assumption on your part. Your suggestion implies that the suite mate would lie to support the story of his teammate, right? With that kind of bias towards him already, you've disregarded what could be valuable evidence. With that kind of twisted logic, we should probably disregard the player's (perps as you refer to them) account of the evening…which the alleged victim herself confirmed…Hmmm, see the problem with this logic?

  • JustaComment811

    I think the argument is that every person is responsible for their own actions and decisions. For example, you cannot control whether or not you get raped. What can you control, as a woman? Not walking alone at night, having a buddy that checks in on you, and making smart decisions for yourself. As a woman, therefore, I chose to try to not walk by myself late at night and to not go to parties or strange rooms without friends (Unless of course my intention was to have sex). Just because someone took it too far doesn't make you an angel. Take responsibility for your own choices. They did not drug her; she chose to drink. She wasn't black out drunk or passed out or incapable of giving consent. She was a girl who got drunk and either made a decision she regretted later or put herself in a bad situation. If its the latter, its not her fault that she got raped, but yes, she could have prevented that. Its called common sense and guys are not the only ones that need a large dose of it!

    • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_7Z42VN5WLOSASRBUAJDOKW2F64 Matthew Lofton

      Thank you. This is what I have been trying to say all along.

    • allgoodtees

      ((They did not drug her; she chose to drink. She wasn't black out drunk or passed out or incapable of giving consent.))

      She doesn't need to be black-out drunk or passed out – impaired is incapable of consent – where is that concerned, responsible advice for the men not to have sex with drunk women?

      ((its not her fault that she got raped, but))

      That's all you really need to say to victim-blame. “Don't go out at night, don't party, don't drink, don't dress the way you want to dress…in fact, just stay in your dorm room and don't leave except to go to classes and MAYBE a man won't rape you. But if he does, I'll be there to question your choices that probably led him on, you irresponsible thing.”

      Where is the same concern for men to keep their fucking dicks in their pants until they get consent? Oh right, if they take turns raping a girl and tell people about it later, all they have to say is that consent was implied because she chose to come to their room, and men AND women will step up to cry “responsibility!” at the woman.

      • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_7Z42VN5WLOSASRBUAJDOKW2F64 Matthew Lofton

        Wow, step off your soap box. It is people like you that give femanism a bad name.

        Like I said, you are probably one of those who sides with the woman mad that she was oogled at and lewd comments were made in the jets lockerroom, put aside she was dressed totally inappropriate for her job.

        Anyways, she not only went up to her room, she BEGAN STRIPPING. Heaven forbid horny teenagers assume a woman taking off her clothes in front of them, there minds turn to sex.

        Heaven forbid someone be responsible for her actions. Ohh, I forgot if you claim rape, doesnt matter how you act.

        All we are EVERYONE is to use common sense.

        A woman can be raped at anytime, certainly. Just like anyone can be robbed at anytime. But, dont the chances of me being robbed go up if one 1mil in Vegas and go around the casino yelling at the top of my lungs I won a million? Anyone wears very revealing clothing and then does a keg stand, you significantly raise your risk of being robbed, assaulted, raped, etc… If a girl was just robbed in that situation, I garuntee it will be quickly asked, “Why the hell did you do what you did?”

        • allgoodtees

          And here come the comparisons of rape to a property crime.

          Rape is not a property crime. Rape is assault.

          If the two students had, instead of taking turns raping her, taken turns beating the shit out of her because “their thoughts turned to assault”, would people still be asking about how responsible she should have been?

          As for their thoughts turning to sex, those students could have THOUGHT about sex with her all they wanted. After she left the room, in whatever state of dress or intoxication, they could have spent that hour talking about how many times they could have “hit that”, how loud she would have screamed and how hot it would have been and you know what? It wouldn't have been rape.

          Instead, they went ahead and raped her (women don't “get raped”, by the way – men rape them. Their choice, their actions, their crime, NOT hers). And now they're free to rape again. Go Spartans.

          • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_7Z42VN5WLOSASRBUAJDOKW2F64 Matthew Lofton

            Again, the 47 guys who did nothing illegal at Duke were the only ones who took responsibilities for their actions (which were not illegal).

            The Men used bad judgement and decisions. At least, AT LEAST, however you fell, you can agree that the woman used bad judgement?

          • allgoodtees

            I am talking about what happened in this case – I brought up the Duke case because several people here are using that (and will probably use it for years) to excuse every subsequent case of a college athlete being accused of rape that only has the victim's word that a crime happened.

            It takes a lot for a woman to come forward and report a rape because society has already told them that a) the police won't believe them, b) the prosecutor won't believe them and c) a jury won't believe them unless their character is completely unassailable. Unless she was a virgin on the way to take her purity pledge and strangers dragged her into an alley and raped her nearly to death, an agile defense attorney will take any previous consent to sex with anyone (it doesn't even have to be her rapist) as tacit consent to any future encounter.

            The Duke case only makes things harder for the victim, because rape apologists will wave that flag until their arms get tired just to make sure that men don't ever have to ask for consent if “their thoughts turn to sex”.

            With all that hanging over a victim's head, plus the fact that there isn't a mark on her because she did what she had to do to survive an assault by two determined assailants who were bigger and stronger than her, what in the world would make her come forward?

            Maybe, just maybe, someone raped her, and she wants to see the ones who did it go to jail.

            Maybe that's why I believe women who have the strength to report a rape in this day and age.

          • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_7Z42VN5WLOSASRBUAJDOKW2F64 Matthew Lofton

            You want prosecution even if it comes on the heels of an innoncent men.

            Kind of like the Black community who wanted the Duke men to fry for all past transgressions against Blacks.

            That forever needs to be used as an example for everyone. Read until proven innocent, the prosecution, the fuculty, the Duke administration, and the general public completely trampled on the civil rights of these players.

            Heaven forbid a law enforcement agent actually have the gall to say “I do not think the woman was raped.” Because a police officer did that in the Duke case and was immediately reprimanded.

        • musicahumana

          WAIT. Back that up.

          The reporter Inez Sainz deserved to be harassed because of her clothing choice? She DESERVED to have a crime committed against her because of what she put on that morning?

          This is what you're implying, and when you take that way of thinking down the continuum of sexual violence from harassment to rape, it's no wonder that you blame the victim for crimes perpetrated against her.

          • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_7Z42VN5WLOSASRBUAJDOKW2F64 Matthew Lofton

            She should be reprimanded for what she was wearing. That is absolutely inappropriate for her job.

          • musicahumana

            Clearly her employer has no problem with her picking out her own clothes; she's a credentialed reporter and as such deserves the same respect as every other sports reporter.

            The old school misogyny about treating a woman as less than human because she chooses to display a spot of cleavage is on the way out. Best get with the program before you get dismissed as a sexist asshole among thinking adults.

  • JustaComment811

    Plus, I think sex would be pretty horrible if a guy was constantly asking me if I consented to the act. If I consented to getting naked and letting them penetrate me, then if I change my mind, it is MY job to inform them of that decision. It is THEIR job to respect that.

    • allgoodtees

      I don't think there's anything sexier than a man who values my consent and seeks it if he's not sure I'm into what he's doing.

      ((if I change my mind, it is MY job to inform them of that decision. It is THEIR job to respect that.))

      Funny – in North Carolina, if you do inform them and they don't respect that? It's still not rape: http://tinyurl.com/2d4b3n9