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The Michigan Messenger going forward

By Staff Report | 11.16.11

I am writing today to announce the closure of the Michigan Messenger. After four years of operation in Michigan, the board of the American Independent News Network, has decided to shift publication of its news into a single site, The American Independent at Americanindependent.com. This is part of a shift in strategy, towards new forms [...]

Colorado-based abstinence program provided false and misleading information to Michigan students

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By Todd A. Heywood | 11.16.11

An abstinence-only presentation provided to numerous school districts in Calhoun and Eaton Counties in October of this year provided false and misleading information to students about HIV, experts allege.

Class action lawsuit filed against MERS over unpaid taxes

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By Todd A. Heywood | 11.15.11

Two county registers of deeds filed a class action lawsuit Monday on behalf of Michigan’s 83 counties alleging that the Mortgage Electronic Registration Services owes millions of dollars in property title transfer taxes.

Schuette fights important mercury regulations

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By Eartha Jane Melzer | 11.14.11

Despite evidence of the impact of mercury on children and public health, Michigan Attorney General Bill Schuette last month joined with 24 other state attorneys general in filing a lawsuit to scuttle new EPA regulations that would reduce mercury emissions from power plants.

Underage drinking at Mackinac causes problems for GOP

By Todd A. Heywood | 10.08.09 | 8:01 am

Michigan Democratic Party Chair Mark Brewer will hold a press conference at party headquarters in Lansing at 1 pm to call for an investigation into underage drinking at a Republican gathering on Mackinac Island in late September.

Surprisingly, information about the potentially illegal activity came from an inside source, a young member of the CMU College Republicans who posted pictures and text on her blog after returning home from the conference claiming that she and her friends had been served alcohol at official parties sponsored by several Republican candidates for governor.

That blog post has since been password protected and is no longer viewable by the public, but the Michigan Messenger had archived a copy before it was taken offline.

The woman who wrote the post is Vanessa Oblinger, a sophomore who is apparently under the legal drinking age. She titled her Sept. 28 post “A Real Political Party” and wrote of shots and mixed drinks imbibed at parties sponsored by the campaigns. The drink of choice, she said, was “whatever a minor can get away with from an open bar.”

As with many of the youth attending the event, this student’s room and food for the weekend were picked up by one of the many political campaigns gearing up for 2010. Among the campaigns that paid to have College Republicans from around the state attend the conference were the gubernatorial campaigns of Mike Cox, Mike Bouchard and Rick Snyder.

The students typically don campaign t-shirts and lobby for their candidates to help them win support in the straw poll that is taken at the event every year. The conference, which was held Sept. 25-26, is attended by hundreds of Republican activists and politicians. Most of the political leaders there also host their own official parties to wine and dine the party faithful, many of which have open bars.

Oblinger wrote on Sept. 28: “Let me tell you, rich politicians know how to throw a pretty damn good party and they definitely do treat the [College Republicans] pretty well — a free trip to Mackinac including free [ferry] trips, free hotel rooms, free food, and ‘the drank’ [alcohol].”

After discussing all the campaigning the young Republicans did for the candidates, Oblinger wrote: “Friday night, we were rewarded with open bars and free dinners. The X’s on the minors hands were washed off and the free drinks showered upon us.” But they soon returned to their hotel rooms that evening because “[t]he real parties are Saturday night.”

She also discussed a good deal of drinking that went on back at their hotel rooms, but that is something the campaigns would have little control over. Much of the problem could simply be ascribed to kids being kids, and it would certainly be fair to point out that similar things undoubtedly go on at all kinds of conferences, there are reasonable questions to be asked about what was allowed to go on at those official parties sponsored by the candidates.

In that setting, lots of college students, at least some of them below the legal drinking age, would be mingling with politicians, staffers and activists while drinking. As anyone who has ever run a bar in a college town will tell you, stamps that wash off are not an effective means of identifying underage people. The only effective way to prevent underage drinking in such a setting is to require ID to be shown when ordering a drink.

At least one of the campaigns did take steps to prevent that from happening. The Mike Cox campaign gave an advance sheet to campaign volunteers that said, “We expect and demand that all volunteers, as representatives of the Attorney General act professional, friendly, and courteous at all times and at all events, both public and private while on the island or in Mackinaw City.”

The sheet also specifically told Cox volunteers that “laws on the mainland apply on Mackinac Island — this includes being 21 years old to drink” and informed them that they would have to sign a document attesting to their understanding of those rules.

The only campaign to return calls for comment was the Rick Snyder campaign. Jake Suski, a Snyder spokesman, told the Messenger, “Rick and this campaign do not condone underage drinking and it should be rejected by all campaigns. We ran an efficient operation on the island and didn’t waste resources on open bars or beer parties, so this really isn’t an issue for our campaign.”

Comments

  • danielhase

    Unless the members of the GOP decided to check ID's and bartend this event themselves instead of highering a catering company, then underage kids being served at this event literally has nothing to do with the GOP. If this article was worth reporting, which it isn't, the headline should read “Grand Hotel serves underage kids”. Let me guess… you don't like the GOP?… Excellent reporting…

  • ToddAHeywood

    With all due respect, the alcohol use by minors was at multiple venues, which offered open bars. This was not just one party where a few people got some free booze. This was many parties– paid for with campaign cash– hosted by candidates for office. Had this been a Democratic event, this post would have been written as well. In Michigan, incidentally, if you host a party where minors consume alcohol, you are legally responsible. The law also holds the caterers or licensed establishment responsible as well.

    • http://www.outsidelansing.com chetlyzarko

      With all due respect, you don't have any evidence, other than the blog post ramblings of a self-proclaimed (we don't even have evidence this person was on the island, is a dem plant, etc.) CMU College Republican, of any underage drinking anywhere. When the State Police (which is under a Democratic Governor's jurisdiction) prosecute someone for this – let the ethical journalism world know.

      Further, there is something that damages the credibility of the alleged blog author. I read the blogger's archived writing – she states they “rubbed off x's” on their hands to get free drinks. The standard security at a bar puts a stamp on everyone's hands and the stamp is the pass – rubbing off the stamp would inform the bartender not to serve. Of course, some bar could have messed that up with a bad system, I suppose, but I personally attended and vividly remember a stamp placed on my hand (I'm in my 30s) at Bishop and Cox's parties. I also know about 50% of the Republicans on the island – and remember only seeing a couple of Snyder people (whom I knew to be of age) at the Bishop party and none at the Cox party (stands to reason, he's running against Snyder). I can't personally attest to the Bishop or Snyder events – didn't attend them. I also only had a few beers each night – I'm well beyond the age where excessive alcohol has an allure, other than to create a nasty hangover.

      So Bishop and Cox are off the hook, in many ways. The blogger mentions not being there, and the parties used the opposite hand-stamp (also, I remember it was a square logo stamp, not an “x”) method, so there goes the “chief law enforcement officer responsible” fiction. Brewer's clearly trying to tar all Republicans by association here.

      Finally, Mark Brewer was all over the island, with spies and video cameras. If it happened, I'd think he'd have YouTube video evidence and this would be a real story. Where's the evidence? Also, if it happened, why didn't Brewer come forward a week ago?

      • ToddAHeywood

        You say you did not see it. But you also, Chetly, are a Republican consultant– would you admit witnessing a minor drinking at any of these parties if you had seen it? I don't know, because I don't know you, but I have a hard time believing you would blow the whistle on the hands that feed you.

        That said, Brewer has called for a criminal investigation. If Mr. Cox, Congressman Hoekstra, Mr. Snyder, Sheriff Bouchard and others have no concerns about underage drinking at these parties, then they should most certainly stand up and support such a call. That is certainly the most certain and swift way to find out whether this is political hype or reality.

        After all an investigation can only serve to clear the GOP, right?

        This is after all an allegation of a crime. Let us see what the police find.

        • http://www.outsidelansing.com chetlyzarko

          Yes, Todd, if I saw a minor drinking I not only would admit it, I'd have dealt with the situation at the time by reporting the minor to an authority. You are a piece of work to suggest otherwise.

          You are paid by George Soros money – would you blow the whistle on a Democratic cause? I don't know you well enough … Give me a break. We've been through this before about argument and bias.

          Investigate? Go for it. It's a witch-hunt and distraction from the budget situation. I suppose all crime should be investigated, but prosecutors and police use some discretion with limited resources. It's the Governor's jurisdiction though (DNR/state police) so I'm sure the outcome will be unbiased. Report back when she's done.

      • ToddAHeywood

        Chetly

        Please see Republican Michigander's comment below. Where he admits that the underage drinking happened by “beating the system.” How many others witnessed the underage drinking and did nothing about it? How many others saw the youth washing the mark off their hands to “beat the system?”

        Are you denying that excessive alcohol consumption both legal and illegal occurs during the Policy Conference? Are you denying that any minors drank for free at these parties?

        • http://www.outsidelansing.com chetlyzarko

          I think RM “admitted” that young people generally “beat the system”, not that he witnessed it at the conference. You might do what a reporter does when making such assertions – ask him for clarification, rather than twisting his words.

        • http://republicanmichigander.blogspot.com/ Republican Michigander

          What I admitted is that people were carded (checked for ID), at the parties I was at. I was witness to that.

          The “stamping” came from the blog post. I took the post for its word.

          Would I turn a 18, 19, or 20 year old in for an MIP? Hell no. I've seen what it does to people, costing them thousands of dollars in fines, court costs, attorney fees, and possible loss of job. If I saw what I knew for a fact was underage drinking at the party, I'd tell the bartender and/or host that some ID's need to be checked, but that's as far as I go.

  • danielhase

    I realize this is an opinion, but even though they may be held legally responsible, I don't see how it has any reflection on the hosts. If you were to host a wedding, and some minors were to get into legal trouble that evening because they were illegally served by your caterers, would this have a reflection on you? You may be held legally responsible, but the caterers are random people that you hire to serve the event while you focus on the task at hand.

  • gbenthem

    “but the caterers are random people that you hire to serve the event while you focus on the task at hand”

    Dan based on your previous post don't you mean “higher to serve?”

  • EricBee

    Well, first off, if you're a provider of alcohol and you wind up serving underaged minors, you most certainly could be held legally accountable for it. How do you think that being held responsible for illegal activity is not a reflection upon you?

    Second, some of these kids and at least one of these parties was sponsored by the state's chief law enforcement officer — the attorney general. Other parties and other kids were sponsored by the Oakland County sheriff. That is, high-ranking law enforcement officials a) brought in volunteers who promptly broke the law, and b) sponsored events at which laws were broken. If you can't maintain order in your own house, how can anyone charitably expect you to do it elsewhere?

    Finally, the entire reason these kids were brought in was to skew a stupid, meaningless straw poll. They were brought in to vote in it, and do nothing else. In short, two of the state's senior law enforcement officials failed to maintain law and order because they were more concerned with headlines than in doing the jobs for which they were elected.

    This isn't something, by the way, that only Democrats/liberals/progressives/journalists/other troublemakers thought was a bad thing, by the way. A few principled Republicans read about this and wondered whether their own party couldn't do better.

    • danielhase

      I agree with you that if you serve alcohol to a minor, you should be held responsible. This is an assumption, but I just highly doubt that the attorney general pulled volunteers off the street to bartend this event. In every event that I've ever been to like this, it's XYZ catering company, or the hotel staff that serves food and liquor. If for some reason the attorney general had time and found it necessary to hire his own entourage of bartending elites, then I would agree that this would be a poor reflection on the GOP.

      I would doubt that the kids were brought in to skew the vote, but that is fine if you think that.. it's irrelevant to my point, which remains that the people throwing this event can't be held responsible for the hired serving staff (assuming they were hired), and this story is not worth writing unless you have something against the GOP.

  • EricBee

    Did you actually read the article before arriving at your opinion, or is it something based on having read the headline and comments underneath? Three campaigns covered room and board costs for college students. Why did they do this? They did it because they wanted these students to take part in the straw poll. This isn't the only place this has been reported, and it's not just my opinion. It's something that Republicans have told people privately that they couldn't believe happened.

    Also, if you sponsor an event, you're responsible for what happens there, no matter who you might hire to distribute the booze. It makes no difference in one of your employees does it, or someone you hire.

    Really, seriously, does anyone believe in taking responsibility anymore?

    • http://www.outsidelansing.com chetlyzarko

      Actually, Eric, I think there may be a legal difference if the person you hire owns the liquor license. If I buy a round of drinks for everyone at a bar informally, the bar still has the legal obligation not to serve in both underage and known overintoxication liability cases, and I'd be mighty surprised that my decision to foot the tab on the round would subject me to liability. I'd like to see your legal authority for your assertion.

      Of course, if the buyer did something actively or negligently didn't do something that caused the improper service, there might be liability. From the testimony of RepublicanMichigander, and I think you find him an honest source if I recall, Bouchard's party did have ID at door. I can't see what he didn't negligently – if a minor defrauded the system most of the onus is on the minor, and some on the bartender who handed it to them (for not double checking at point of service).

      But we don't even have evidence of a single illegal service. We have the blog ramblings of someone … someone who can barely write, got key facts wrong, etc.

      Give me a break.

      • EricBee

        Thanks for moving the goal posts here, Chetly (as usual).

        A. The “blog ramblings” you're talking about came from someone who not only attended the parties, but participated in the illegal activity. You are free to call a self-confession “no evidence,” however. To me and other normal people, that just makes you look incredibly silly.

        B. As always, you confuse legal complicity with general complicity. This is like when you tried to argue that water boarding is not bad because there is not a specific U.S. statute making it illegal. If you throw a party — a wedding reception — and you hire a catering service to provide food and drink, if a bunch of kids got drunk and out-of-hand, people don't talk about the wedding reception as if it were the catering service's party. They talk about the wedding reception as if it were your party. No one cares about who catered the thing. Why? It's your party.

        C. The specific, legal onus for breaking the law may well rest with the individual minor who washed an “X” off his or her hand, but the responsibility for creating an environment where that was the bar to gain access to an illegal substance — at a party thrown by law enforcement officials who should know better — rests with the people who threw the party. Again, what apparently happened here was that IDs were checked at the door, and security went on autopilot afterwards. No one bothered to make sure that the X's weren't washed off, no one gave two thoughts to the extraordinarily large number of young people consuming drinks, no one checked to make sure that the catering staff was even checking the backs of people's hands. And, this happened at parties sponsored by law enforcement officials, who should know better than anyone the tricks minors use to obtain alcohol.

        D. B and C apply to every other social setting in existence anywhere in the United States. Apparently not politics, where members of the Republican base see it as their duty to refuse to hold accountable their elected official when they demonstrate poor judgment.

        And, of course, there is the outstanding reality that this environment was created with the express purpose in mind of skewing an otherwise meaningless straw poll.

        • http://www.outsidelansing.com chetlyzarko

          A) We don't know who the blog ramblings came from. We don't even know that the named woman really did write them, as this is the internet. I suspect the latter is true, but I have no idea who she is, whether she's a Republican, how she got to the island, whether indeed she was on the island. Ask a lawyer, Eric, if this diary would meet evidence requirements — it would at least require some authenticating testimony.

          The diary does raise some questions.
          B) Ah, “general complicity”. You are reduced to this. OK. Sounds like “guilt by association”, but I'll let you have this. What I won't let you have is that Cox and Bishop's party's are not implicated, even by this blog rambling. Maybe Bouchard's, but you have no real evidence then. Snyder apparently didn't host a party with alcohol. No mention of Hoekstra – I don't recall he had one either. Quit tarring Republicans generally. It's bad logic and reflects badly on you. You have the barest thread of an attack on Bouchard, and even then its pretty bare.

          C) Again, all of it depends on the accuracy of the story. The story doesn't seem credible in my mind because she writes of rubbing off stamps, but it is the stamp which gets you the alcohol in most bars I've been to. No stamp would be a red flag to card. The rest of the writing was so exaggerated as to be childish “bragging” that is often not true (we all did that as kids), or a good old-fashioned set-up, which Brewer is easily capable of. Ask Butch Hollowell about that.

          • EricBee

            Ummm, people are actually writing news stories about this and contacting the girl who wrote the blog. So, yes, we do know for certain who wrote these. She even told MIRS that she was sick about the publicity this has created.

            So, I don't know. Oh wait, I do know. You look incredibly silly trying to protect Republicans from their own conduct.

          • http://www.outsidelansing.com chetlyzarko

            Of course we know she exists. Nice strawman. We don't know WHO she is. The news contacts I've seen are pretty hazy including the MIRS quip, in which they got the “sick” quote probably about one second before they got the no comment quote. It's hard for me to be defending “Republicans from their own conduct” when you don't even have a specific Republican action to attack – unless you mean the girl is a Republican, and we aren't sure of that. If you want me to defend the girl, I'm not. But I don't know she's a Republican, her conduct hasn't implicated other individuals (YET, with more evidence I CONCEDE IT MIGHT), and even she was your guilt by association reeks of witch-hunt and over-reaction.

            You look incredibly silly trying to use this silly issue and the girl to your own political ends as a weapon in the Governors race. Get some evidence of a crime, or maybe work on trying to figure out budget solutions. This is a brutal waste of time and you and Brewer deserve to be called out for it – and to the extent the MSM has bit into the hook on it, it deserves blame too, although their reporting has been fairer than MM or you.

            Why would a girl we know nothing about, other than that she's sick about the publicity, maybe not be credible? 1) she could have been exaggerating to impress other teenagers. that's pretty common, and the most likely explanation. with Occam's Razor, I pick that explanation without other evidence.. 2) the x's story doesn't fit – kind of like OJ's glove – because she talks of rubbing them off, as opposed to getting them. 3) at two parties, I can verify there were no x's – Bishop and Cox – there were logo stamps and door ID 4) she might be even an operative of Brewer, we simply don't know her. the story is written with curious rhetoric “rich Republicans”, with vagueness to details other than the story Brewer wants to sell, etc.

            Speaking of MIRS, right before that “sick” quote you point out, it wrote this:
            —
            Marks did tell MIRS, though, that without specific information on the names of the parties and bars at which this underage drinking took place, it may be difficult to take any official action. The Island's police department arrested nobody for underage drinking the weekend of Sept. 25 to 27, the dates of the Michigan Republican Party's (MRP) biennial leadership conference.
            —
            No one arrested! I saw island police several times. They were out in force, as they are every year. You'd think in such a target rich environment they'd pick someone up? And they are non-partisan.

            There are many explanations that involve no crime by Republicans. Including the evidence that no arrests were made.

          • EricBee

            So, let me get this straight … you finally concede that this person exists, and yet despite the admission by the Snyder campaign that she was on the island and a “volunteer” for his campaign, you really can't be sure if anyone really broke the law.

            Incredibly silly, Chetly. Even worse than the time you tried to say that waterboarding isn't bad because there isn't a specific statute saying as such under U.S. law.

            What ends am I trying to serve here? Very simple. I'm trying to point out the depths to which various campaigns sunk to win a stupid, meaningless straw poll. And, all the stuff pushed about the Snyder campaign forcing people to sign pledges to vote for him, and to show their ballots, came from a Republican … not me.

  • danielhase

    If you think that the GOP hiring a catering company or hotel staff that serves to minors reflects poorly on the people setting it up, the OK. I completely disagree (I think the catering company or hotel staff serving should be held responsible), but I'd rather have clarity of agreement.

  • brendanm

    Okay, there are no motor vehicles allowed on Mackinac Island, so this isn't a big deal. I'd be much more interested in potentially corrupt fund-raising, the participation of extremists, or other substantive issues that may be relevant to this conference.

    But hey, if Michigan Democrats want to score a few cheap political points, go ahead. We know Republicans would do the same and worse.

  • mikeFREEDOM

    HELLO MAYBE ITS T6IME FOR ONE OF THE MAJOR PARTIES TO REENDORSE THE LEGAL DRINKING AGE AT 18. WE ARE TALKING ATLEAST A 30% SPIKE OF REVENUE AT THE BARS. AND NO MORE “DRINKING AGE REFUGEES” DYING AT THE BORDERS.

  • http://republicanmichigander.blogspot.com/ Republican Michigander

    As someone who went to two of the parties after the panels on the Grand Hotel closed, I can speak to this from my experience. I was not carded by one place I went to eat that wasn't a political party/candidate sponsored event. That's not a big deal, since I'm balding and in my 30's.

    At the candidate parties I attended, I, a balding 30-something, was carded at the door. It didn't matter than Mike himself knows me and that I'm well over 21. That shows me that they did their jobs. Those underage were stamped. At the door. Some erased the stamps on their wrist in the restroom. That happens. People beat the system. It happens all over the place. No one was hurt. No one drove home.

    As far as investigations go for this, the last thing I want my tax dollars to investigate is a 18, 19, or 20 year old drinking on an island where cars are banned. If they need a witness to the Standard Operating Procedures (which was even admitted to in that post), I'll talk to them, but this is ridiculous.

  • ToddAHeywood

    So, let me get this right. You saw minors wash the mark off their hands and then proceed to drink and you are OK with this? Because they “beat the system?”

    Chetly, please note, now it is not just the blog of a CMU student where the underage drinking has been admitted to being witnessed. Now you have Republican Michigander admitting to witnessing this action.

    • EricBee

      Chetly's interest in this rests primarily in making sure that Republicans don't have to admit that they screwed something up. That's all this really is. Mark Brewer is no more interested in an actual investigation than anyone else is. He's playing a political game.

      I'm playing a political game when I rhetorically ask whether Mike Cox would support an investigation into underage drinking at his own party. I think three campaigns acted in poor judgment in bringing a bunch of college kids to this conference for the express purpose of skewing a meaningless straw poll so they could get one headline. I think they brought a bunch of kids to the island and didn't carry that through to what would happen when those kids were exposed to the long-known after-hours partying that takes place at Republican conventions and conferences. Or, they didn't care.

      Either way, they did it, and there was widespread law breaking. Of course, I have to point out again, I've heard from a couple of Republicans who said they thought this was a low point in politics.

    • http://republicanmichigander.blogspot.com/ Republican Michigander

      I didn't witness the stamps being washed.That was something from the blog posts. I witnessed people being carded.

      Am I OK with it? I wouldn't serve minors, but I'm not going to get them MIP'ed and wreck their lives with a misdemeanor, fines, and attorney fees for doing something 90% of the public has done at some point in their lives.

  • ebrayton

    Chetly wrote:

    With all due respect, you don't have any evidence, other than the blog post ramblings of a self-proclaimed (we don't even have evidence this person was on the island, is a dem plant, etc.) CMU College Republican, of any underage drinking anywhere.

    The Snyder campaign confirmed that Oblinger was there and that they paid for her trip, but they also say that she was turned away from their official party because of her age. Can you think of some reason why a member of the College Republicans there to stump for a Republican candidate would lie about what went on?

    Also, it seems to me that if you think she might be lying, you would support an investigation that could document that to be the case.

    Investigate? Go for it. It's a witch-hunt and distraction from the budget situation. I suppose all crime should be investigated, but prosecutors and police use some discretion with limited resources. It's the Governor's jurisdiction though (DNR/state police) so I'm sure the outcome will be unbiased.

    The investigation will be done by the Liquor Control Commission and the local police. Since this is the kind of investigation that the LCC does every single day as part of their efforts to prevent underage drinking, why does it suddenly become a witch hunt when it involves Republicans? I bet you wouldn't be saying this if the same thing happened at a Democratic conference (and I have no doubt that it does, but since there is a credible report documenting it in this instance, the LCC has a legal obligation to investigate, don't they?).

    Ah, “general complicity”. You are reduced to this. OK. Sounds like “guilt by association”, but I'll let you have this.

    No, there may well be quite specific complicity here. That's what an investigation will reveal. Look, you live in a college town and you know damn well that the only even minimally effective way to keep underage kids from being served is for the wait staff and bartenders to card people when they order a drink (even that can be beaten, of course, but that will happen far more rarely than with an open bar and any kind of stamp at the door). If you stamp the underage ones, they can wash it off. If you stamp the overage ones, they can press their hands to the underage one's hands and rub it off. Anyone who's ever gone to college knows this.

    Now, here you have a situation where the campaigns have brought a couple hundred kids to the island, many of them below the legal drinking age and then failed to set up the proper procedures to keep them from being served alcohol. On top of that, you've got those kids drinking alcohol at those official parties while they mingled with politicians, staffers and activists. Surely at some point, someone in a position of authority had to witness underage kids drinking and have chosen not to do anything about it. Again, this is what investigations are for. This is what the LCC does every single day in similar situations. You should be welcoming that.

    Is Brewer trying to score political points with this? Of course he is. That's what Brewer does. It's also what the Republicans do every day and would be doing to the same degree if the tables were turned. But from a journalistic perspective, this is still news. You just seem to think that because it involves Republicans, no one should pay any attention to it. Of course, you're a Republican consultant so that's a rather convenient position to take.

    • http://www.outsidelansing.com chetlyzarko

      Yeah, Ed, I can think of a reason.

      Teenagers try to impress other teenagers. They occasionally tell “tall tales” – even on, or perhaps now especially on, blogs and facebook. Young men are reknowned for this – but society has evolved and even young woman get into it as well. I think the LCC and local police know that too, and when they don't have specific facts, as they don't here, their investigation, as the MIRS quote of Island police chief points out, is unlikely to result in anything. Everyone here talks of Oblinger's writing as gospel truth … that's far from apparent.

      Cut the bull-turd argument that I think “news” should avoid Republicans. My point was that the “journalism” here in this article lacked evidence for its claims, as does Brewer. You get evidence one of the candidates or campaigns did something active or negligent to encourage underage drinking, and I'll slam them hard. Publicly and behind the scenes. It's not there. Perhaps MM should have covered it – its certainly news in the sense that Brewer had a press conference. But that's it – so far.

      That Snyder hired Oblinger explains a few things, which you seem to have come up with late in the game here, and it then becomes a pox on HIS campaign to some extent then, even if he denies his campaign admitted her to a party. Other campaigns had “teams”, but most of a cadre of active CRs, loyal staff members, and older younger R's that were relatively small. Snyder's was the most vast I've ever seen, and he rightfully took some criticism for that based on their lack of knowledge about their candidate or politics, according to one video (ooh, I'm criticizing a Republican here…. something's out of place).

      One uses stamps of some kind (some inks are very hard to transfer, contrary to your suggestion) as part of a larger system. The responsibilty, as you note, still devolves to the bartender at point of service – open bar or normal sales. I was carded once on the island at a bar and saw one person carded – so I know that happened too. Not in every case, but most cases involved clearly older people, as most of the attendance at these “parties” was 30 plus. Unless the other four campaigns did something special to discourage carding or encourage underaged folks in, I don't see their culpability. We don't even know they got in, or succeeded. Snyder's people were very visible because of their shirts – the underaged ones also disappeared from the island each night on the final ferry at midnight, according to the story-line. I saw no Snyder people at any other Gub. candidate event and some of Snyder's older staff at Bishop's event. Is it possible a small number slipped in somewhere or did other events? Sure – I can't prove a negative, and I'm not even sure where the moral culpability would be if the campaigns took reasonable pre-cautions in their dealings with the bartenders. Fortunately, criminal law is no longer based on Salem witch-hunt rules where a negative has to be proven. That's either your job or the LCC's.

    • http://www.outsidelansing.com chetlyzarko

      You know, this whole “You're a Republican consultant” line is wearing thin. It has no logical bearing on the arguments, Ed, and you should be ashamed to make it as an argument. Attack the arguments, not the messenger.

      If it works against me, it works the other way. Your words would then mean nothing because your a George Soros funded operative, and Soros only funds Democrat and left causes.

      Bias information can have some relevance in a discussion, but I've never concealed my history and it has no relevance to most arguments of logic anyway. It also doesn't ring true because I have an independent streak and have criticized the party where appropriate. I'm an individual who believes in the sovereignty of the individual, with conservative and liberty principles FIRST, before being a member of any party.

  • ebrayton

    chetly wrote:

    Yeah, Ed, I can think of a reason.

    Teenagers try to impress other teenagers. They occasionally tell “tall tales” – even on, or perhaps now especially on, blogs and facebook. Young men are reknowned for this – but society has evolved and even young woman get into it as well. I think the LCC and local police know that too, and when they don't have specific facts, as they don't here, their investigation, as the MIRS quote of Island police chief points out, is unlikely to result in anything. Everyone here talks of Oblinger's writing as gospel truth … that's far from apparent.

    You're beating up a straw man here, chetly. No one here claims that what she said is “gospel truth.” What I said, and what remains true, is that she made a credible report of underage drinking. Credible – not indisputable, not inviolable, but credible. One can always come up with a hypothetical reason why someone might be lying, but that is a far cry from providing a compelling for believing that they are lying. If Oblinger made it all up to impress someone, she went to great lengths to do it – taking pictures of her friends at Mackinac Island during the conference, in campaign shirts, and pictures of them playing drinking games and falling down drunk on the lawn. And she even named names. That's not the hallmark of a hoax, chetly. Could it hypothetically be? Sure. Guess how you find out? Through an investigation.

    Cut the bull-turd argument that I think “news” should avoid Republicans. My point was that the “journalism” here in this article lacked evidence for its claims, as does Brewer. You get evidence one of the candidates or campaigns did something active or negligent to encourage underage drinking, and I'll slam them hard. Publicly and behind the scenes. It's not there. Perhaps MM should have covered it – its certainly news in the sense that Brewer had a press conference. But that's it – so far.

    And that's all we've reported. Again, you're attacking a strawman, pretending that we went off on some wild-assed accusation. In fact, we did exactly what an ethical journalism site does, we contacted each and every campaign that had underage people there and threw parties. The only one that called us back was Snyder's campaign. But we also got our hands on evidence that the Cox campaign had taken steps to avoid underage drinking and we reported that. We also went out of our way to point out that the campaigns that paid their way there could not be held responsible for what went on at the hotels, that a good portion of the story is nothing greater than “kids will be kids.” But there is responsibility, I think, when you pay a bunch of underage kids to come to the conference, allow them in to parties that you paid for and arranged with an open bar and then don't take the proper precautions to prevent them from being served. We do not know which, if any, of the campaigns actually did this. That's why we didn't accuse any of them of doing it and that's why we made clear that at least one campaign had denied and another had taken positive steps to prevent it. If the other campaigns had returned our calls, we would have reported their positions as well.

    The fact is that this is a perfectly reasonable article in both tone and substance. We didn't go off making wild accusations, we presented the evidence on both sides as it is known right now and we reported that an investigation has been called for. In response to that perfectly reasonable tone and substance, you went off like a partisan hack. Then you whine when you're responded to like a partisan hack. Don't want to be viewed that way? Stop acting that way.

    • http://www.outsidelansing.com chetlyzarko

      Actually, I do note how her report was written in such a way as to have not-credible portions of it. The overall tone is hyperbolic, it lacks key specifics, and the one specific we do have – rubbing off x's is both unusual and rules out at least two candidate parties (I can't attest to the third, Bouchard party).

      Mr. Heywood's article goes far beyond the mere reporting you and I agree on would be reasonable. Just one example would be the second paragraph:

      …had been served alcohol at official parties sponsored by several Republican candidates for governor …

      I don't see where Oblinger claimed SEVERAL Republican candidates for governor served her alcohol, let alone claimed any gubernatorial candidate did. She refers to “open bars” in the generic in her tirade, but doesn't identify any bar. The more I read it, the more I think … this is a girl trying to brag to her peers about drinking more than she really did. Perhaps she deserves some investigation here, and if it rubs off on a candidate so be it, but I don't see that as likely and there is no evidence of any candidate being responsible at this point.

      I also don't see where she's “named names” – unless you're talking about a few of her friends (which I don't see in this article or any other). She named no candidates, no bars or bartenders, no friends over 21 that got her the “drank”. You haven't shown us any of the photos, in your journalistic excellence, probably because they had little editorial value to the conclusions you'd like to draw. Don't introduce into evidence concepts from evidence you haven't introduced into the debate. I can't reasonably respond to it.

      Finally, if you don't want to be viewed as a George Soros hack, stop writing stories that act as that. Stop attacking your readers for raising fair questions. And when you're losing the argument, stop attacking them with ad homimens, like we're both doing now.

      If this story were running in reverse and it was a young Democrat, you'd be accusing those doing the story writers of being on a witch-hunt … that is, if it even saw the light of day in the media at all, which I suspect it wouldn't. Don't be surprised when a sting-with-video is done at the next Jefferson-Jack dinner, and I expect the writer to get the MM award for good journalism if it turns something up.

    • http://www.outsidelansing.com chetlyzarko

      I have an addendum where I think we can agree.

      If this story is about:

      when you pay a bunch of underage kids to come to the conference, allow them in to parties that you paid for and arranged with an open bar and then don't take the proper precautions to prevent them from being served. We do not know which, if any, of the campaigns actually did this. That's why we didn't accuse any of them of doing it and that's why we made clear that at least one campaign had denied and another had taken positive steps to prevent it.

      Only one campaign paid a bunch of kids to come to the conference. It's well known – a google search would have turned it up. You could have interviewed me, for that matter (the Republican campaigns ignore you for reasons I'm sure you're well aware of – they involve a libel suit last year). Snyder. He denies having any party. That's probably true. The other campaigns had fairly tight staffs of (mostly) mid-aged folks. The Snyder people didn't come to other Governor's candidates parties – at least in significant numbers (the shirts, as you note, are what I base that on). Should the other 4 Gub candidates be responsible for Snyder's decision to bring a few hundred students on the island? Did the candidates that had open bars have the bars take normal precautions to comply with the law? Yes, or at least no evidence they didn't. And if the “open bars” were so “open” — why would the students have needed to go to their hotels rooms to get more alcohol — which we know they did? When I was young (and over 21), I always drank what was free before tapping into my own reserves.

      But as I said two comments above, if this is what you want to criticize … paying a bunch of underage kids to come to the island … then the pox is on Snyder's campaign (its not a particularly huge one, since even he has apparently dispersed responsibility, but …). That we agree on, albeit its not as big a story as “Underaged drinking problems for GOP”. MM may not have “known” which campaigns did what because many chose not to respond to you, so MM effectively accused them all of doing it in the general way of writing the story. That's why I reacted to it the way I did.

  • centrist1

    This story from WOOD TV from last year describes a Vanessa Oblinger of Saranac, MI being charged with placing a fake bomb outside of the band room of Saranac High School. Coincidence?

  • centrist1

    Michigan Messenger: Underage drinking by college students is a national problem and should be addressed regardless of party affiliation. I also want to point out a story from the Daily Kos on who the blogging source might be for the Michigan Democratic Party's story on the underage drinking at the GOP confab:

    Link:http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/10/10/791972/-GOP-Mackinac-Event-Underage-Drinking-Prompts-Investigations-and-Coverage

    This story from WOOD TV from last year describes a Vanessa Oblinger of Saranac, MI being charged with placing a fake bomb outside of the band room of Saranac High School. Coincidence?

  • centrist1

    This story from WOOD TV from last year describes a Vanessa Oblinger of Saranac, MI being charged with placing a fake bomb outside of the band room of Saranac High School. Coincidence?

  • centrist1

    Michigan Messenger: Underage drinking by college students is a national problem and should be addressed regardless of party affiliation. I also want to point out a story from the Daily Kos on who the blogging source might be for the Michigan Democratic Party's story on the underage drinking at the GOP confab:

    Link:http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/10/10/791972/-GOP-Mackinac-Event-Underage-Drinking-Prompts-Investigations-and-Coverage

    This story from WOOD TV from last year describes a Vanessa Oblinger of Saranac, MI being charged with placing a fake bomb outside of the band room of Saranac High School. Coincidence?

  • centrist1

    This story from WOOD TV from last year describes a Vanessa Oblinger of Saranac, MI being charged with placing a fake bomb outside of the band room of Saranac High School. Coincidence?

  • centrist1

    Michigan Messenger: Underage drinking by college students is a national problem and should be addressed regardless of party affiliation. I also want to point out a story from the Daily Kos on who the blogging source might be for the Michigan Democratic Party's story on the underage drinking at the GOP confab:

    Link:http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/10/10/791972/-GOP-Mackinac-Event-Underage-Drinking-Prompts-Investigations-and-Coverage

    This story from WOOD TV from last year describes a Vanessa Oblinger of Saranac, MI being charged with placing a fake bomb outside of the band room of Saranac High School. Coincidence?

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