Comments on: Opinions on same-sex marriage shifting in Michigan

By: Pride09

Pride09 — Tue, 16 Jun 2009 06:50:16 +0000

I agree with you Ed about the younger generation. They are the ones that are more accepting then the older generations and (like you said) we will look back at this time and wounder why people were opposed to it. That's why I always laugh when Gary Glenn say's we have to stop this for “our kids sake”, I mean, they are the ones who will be (and currently are) for gay marriage, the majority, even if their parents tell them otherwise. We all have our own opinions, own voices, and equal through the eyes of God.
But I'm not going to waste my time arguing with Gary because he (as we all know) will always have the same opinion and can't admit defeat. It's a similar situation when I was arguing with a McCain supporter, and even after Obama was elected they couldn't accept the fact that it's over.. time's have changed.
The AFA and other hate groups will always be out there, just like the KKK is still out there. But they won't be as strong and won't have an effect like they have in the past.

By: Pride09

Pride09 — Tue, 16 Jun 2009 02:50:16 +0000

By: Pride09

Pride09 — Mon, 15 Jun 2009 23:50:16 +0000

By: AFAMichigan

AFAMichigan — Wed, 10 Jun 2009 03:36:00 +0000

Ed, don't you read your own posts? You did indeed make the argument to which I responded, as follows: “But the trend in all of the polls, both in Michigan and around the nation, is quite clear. Support for gay marriage has gone up remarkably, opposition to it has gone down remarkably.” As to the meaningless inclusion of the “marriage” and/or “civil union” option, so what? In 30 states, including a sizeable majority in which the ballot proposals prohibited legal recognition of “marriage” and “unions,” what was the practical utility of the “and/or” argument? None. They passed in all 30 states. And why wait a generation? Strident liberals who argue the minority view in support of so-called homosexual “marriage” already characterize Martin Luther King's daughter Bernice and niece Alveda and the Boy Scouts and the Salvation Army and Ken and Alan and Ken and myself as comparable to the Ku Klux Klan. Which will continue to help our side.

By: ebrayton

ebrayton — Wed, 10 Jun 2009 03:15:46 +0000

Again you cite a single poll. And again, you reply to an argument I did not make. I specifically noted the support for gay marriage and civil unions combined. When you just ask whether they support gay marriage or not gay marriage, the polls typically show 55-60% say no gay marriage, 40% says yes. But if you ask the question slightly differently and add in the possibility of granting all of the rights of marriage without actually calling it that, support jumps significantly, up to between 60 and 70% on average. Your position, that same-sex relationships should get no legal recognition from the government at all, is a small minority now. And this has changed enormously over the last 5 years.

Of course you're not going to run up the white flag on this issue. But frankly, I think the strident reaction from your segment of the world is made all the more inflated precisely because you do realize, on some level, that you've already lost. The official sanction of anti-gay bigotry is undergoing its death rattles at the moment, just as 40 years ago the official sanction of anti-black bigotry did so. The patterns are identical; the outcome will be too. By 2012, anti-gay marriage referendums will actually hurt the Republican party around the country. Within one generation, you and your fellow bigots will be viewed the same way we view those who fought against civil rights for blacks today (and yes, that includes black bigots like Ken Hutcherson, Alan Keyes and Ken Blackwell).

By: AFAMichigan

AFAMichigan — Wed, 10 Jun 2009 03:00:01 +0000

Ed, conveniently for our position, your "facts" aren't factual.

For example...

"GALLUP -- May 27, 2009 -- 'Majority of Americans Continue to Oppose Gay Marriage' by Jeffrey M. Jones. Americans' views on same-sex marriage have essentially stayed the same in the past year, with a majority of 57% opposed to granting such marriages legal status and 40% in favor of doing so. Though support for legal same-sex marriage is significantly higher now than when Gallup first asked about it in 1996, in recent years support has appeared to stall, peaking at 46% in 2007."

Meaning as to recent trend, support has dropped 6% in the last two years, according to Gallup. Of course, Gallup was wrong about MI in 2004, and they might be wrong now.

As to young voters' position, Winston Churchill's old adage applies: "If you're under 30 and you're not a liberal, you don't have a heart. If you're over 30 and you're not a conservative, you don't have a brain." As younger voters age, get married, have children, and realize the implications of this issue on their own children, they'll grow more conservative and thus more supportive of retaining traditional marriage.

Plus the two fastest growing racial demographics in the U.S. -- African-Americans and Hispanics, both of whom have some experience and moral authority on the issue of legitimate "civil rights" -- are more supportive of preserving one-man, one-woman marriage than the population at large.

Once again, you'll forgive us if we don't run up a white flag just because you're sending out invitations to a premature celebration party..

By: ebrayton

ebrayton — Wed, 10 Jun 2009 02:19:04 +0000

That's possible, of course, and it would be convenient for your position, but it's not very likely. You cited one poll from 2004 that was wrong; that is the danger of looking at a single poll. But the trend in all of the polls, both in Michigan and around the nation, is quite clear. Support for gay marriage has gone up remarkably, opposition to it has gone down remarkably, and support for some form of legal recognition for same-sex relationships is now the majority position by a sizable margin. I know you don't want that to be true but it is. Whether you want to realize it or not, the nation is changing and your favored form of bigotry is on the way out. In 20 years, we will look back on this era and wonder what on earth was the big deal, just as we now look back on the controversy over interracial marriage and can't imagine why anyone ever opposed it. Your side has already lost. The young people today do not share your prejudice against gay people and the older voters who do are dying off. You've already lost, you just can't admit that.

By: AFAMichigan

AFAMichigan — Wed, 10 Jun 2009 01:42:09 +0000

My point, Ed, was to illustrate the likelihood that the new poll released this week is probably as reliable an indicator of true public sentiment in Michigan as the CNN/ Washington Post / Gallup poll was back in September 2004. In other words: not.

By: ebrayton

ebrayton — Wed, 10 Jun 2009 01:24:10 +0000

I'm a bit baffled by Gary Glenn's point here. The new poll is not dated from 2004, it was done 2 weeks ago. The poll it was compared to is from 2004.

By: ebrayton

ebrayton — Wed, 10 Jun 2009 01:22:32 +0000

I think perhaps prsteve misread what I wrote. I specifically said a sizable majority is now in favor of "either gay marriage or civil unions." And there is plenty of support for that claim. If you go to http://www.pollingreport.com/civil.htm, you'll see lots of recent polls that show this. A Fox News poll from May found that 33% support full gay marriage, 33% support other legal recognition of same-sex relationships (i.e. civil unions) and only 29% reject all legal recognition for same-sex relationships. A Quinnipiac poll from April shows 57% would support civil unions. A CNN poll from April shows 60% support for civil unions. A CBS News poll from April showed that support for either marriage or civil unions was tied even among Republicans at 49/49, while among Democrats 74% favored one of those things and only 21% said no legal recognition and among Independents it was 69-25%.