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The Michigan Messenger going forward

By Staff Report | 11.16.11

I am writing today to announce the closure of the Michigan Messenger. After four years of operation in Michigan, the board of the American Independent News Network, has decided to shift publication of its news into a single site, The American Independent at Americanindependent.com. This is part of a shift in strategy, towards new forms [...]

Colorado-based abstinence program provided false and misleading information to Michigan students

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By Todd A. Heywood | 11.16.11

An abstinence-only presentation provided to numerous school districts in Calhoun and Eaton Counties in October of this year provided false and misleading information to students about HIV, experts allege.

Class action lawsuit filed against MERS over unpaid taxes

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By Todd A. Heywood | 11.15.11

Two county registers of deeds filed a class action lawsuit Monday on behalf of Michigan’s 83 counties alleging that the Mortgage Electronic Registration Services owes millions of dollars in property title transfer taxes.

Schuette fights important mercury regulations

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By Eartha Jane Melzer | 11.14.11

Despite evidence of the impact of mercury on children and public health, Michigan Attorney General Bill Schuette last month joined with 24 other state attorneys general in filing a lawsuit to scuttle new EPA regulations that would reduce mercury emissions from power plants.

Opinions on same-sex marriage shifting in Michigan

By Ed Brayton | 06.08.09 | 12:35 am

The Detroit Free Press reports on a new poll that shows a remarkable and significant shift in public opinion in Michigan over the issue of same-sex marriage. In 2004, a state constitutional amendment prohibiting same-sex marriage passed with 59% of the vote, but if that vote were held today it would be much closer:

In what Glengariff Group pollster Richard Czuba describes as a seismic shift in public opinion, even support for gay marriage has nearly doubled since a similar poll in 2004. That poll was conducted before voters approved an amendment to the Michigan Constitution defining marriage as exclusively between a man and a woman.

In October 2004, a Glengariff poll showed 24% of Michiganders supported marriage rights for same-sex partners, and only 42% supported legal recognition of civil unions. In the new poll, support for same sex marriage was 46.5% and for civil unions 63.7%. Forty-eight percent of state voters said they opposed adding marriage rights, the only one of nine gay rights issues not winning majority support.

This mirrors a national shift in public opinion over the last few years as well. Poll after poll now shows voters divided about equally on the question of gay marriage with a sizable majority being in favor of either gay marriage or civil unions granting the same rights and protections that marriage would.

Comments

  • prsteve11

    Unfortunately, this article is blatantly misleading. It says, “Poll after poll now shows voters divided about equally on the question of gay marriage with a sizable majority being in favor of either gay marriage or civil unions granting the same rights and protections that marriage would.”

    Unfortunately for the liberals and homosexual activists, that's a flat out lie. There has been only about one poll that found voters evenly divided on the subject – namely the ABC News/Washington Post poll. But what about the many polls since then that have found the opposite result? The Gallup Poll which found that Americans oppose it 57%-40%, the Pew Research Poll that found opposition at 54%-35%, the Quinnipiac poll at 54%-38% and the list goes on.

    You see, the problem with polling is that it can be a very inaccurate science when it comes to issues like same-sex marriage. Virtually all independent polls showed Prop 8 losing in California in late 2008, yet it passed with a narrow, yet sizeable, majorities. And do we honestly believe that Michigan opposes gay marriage by the same margin that California does, i.e., an almost even split? Recent polls also show that in New York, voters are almost evenly divided on the issue. So I ask again, do we honestly believe that Michigan is in the same boat as New York and California?

    • ebrayton

      I think perhaps prsteve misread what I wrote. I specifically said a sizable majority is now in favor of “either gay marriage or civil unions.” And there is plenty of support for that claim. If you go to http://www.pollingreport.com/civil.htm, you'll see lots of recent polls that show this. A Fox News poll from May found that 33% support full gay marriage, 33% support other legal recognition of same-sex relationships (i.e. civil unions) and only 29% reject all legal recognition for same-sex relationships. A Quinnipiac poll from April shows 57% would support civil unions. A CNN poll from April shows 60% support for civil unions. A CBS News poll from April showed that support for either marriage or civil unions was tied even among Republicans at 49/49, while among Democrats 74% favored one of those things and only 21% said no legal recognition and among Independents it was 69-25%.

  • Trajan8

    Regardless as to the accuracy of the poll, the point is still made. Public opinion is shifting. I'm not surprised, as I am one of them that has shifted.

    In 2004, I voted in favor of Prop 2 (or whatever it was) to prohibit marriage, even though back then I was in favor of equal rights through unions. At this point, while I still would prefer to keep marriage's definition the same, I think it is petty of me to have strong feelings about it, when there are so many who are being materially impacted from their lack of rights. Giving up on 'marriage' is a small sacrifice I can make, if it means that some blatant discrimination is ended. And I think there are others like me who have shifted, which is what the article is saying.

    prsteve, the polls you use are just as misleading, as they only include the marriage numbers, and not the civil union numbers. I'm not surprised you didn't use the latter, cause that would show you are on the losing side in the battle. Do you question the 'sizable majority' in favor of equal rights without marriage?

    Regardless of any of that though. The article is NOT misleading. The title says that opinions are shifting, and that is a true statement that your denial won't change.

  • AFAMichigan

    REALITY CHECK…note the date on the poll:

    “The poll also found that…among likely voters, 51 percent said they would vote AGAINST (Michigan's Marriage Protection Amendment), while just 45 percent said they would support it.”

    ————————

    CNN
    Atlanta, Georgia
    September 14, 2004

    Poll: Michigan too close to call

    Likely fate of proposed gay marriage ban also unclear

    (CNN) — The race between Democratic presidential nominee Sen. John Kerry and President Bush is too close to call in the battleground state of Michigan, according to a CNN/USA Today/Gallup poll released Tuesday evening.

    Among likely voters surveyed, Kerry was the choice of 50 percent, with 44 percent for Bush and 1 percent for independent Ralph Nader. The poll had a margin of error of plus or minus 4 percentage points.

    Among registered voters, Kerry was at 50 percent, Bush at 43 percent and Nader still at 1 percent.

    The poll also found that the outcome of a proposed constitutional amendment that would ban gay and lesbian marriage is too close to be determined.

    Among likely voters, 51 percent said they would vote against such a ban, while just 45 percent said they would support it. Among registered voters, 51 percent were opposed and 44 percent said they would support it, the poll found.

    Michigan is one of a dozen states where opponents of same-sex marriage have put constitutional amendments on the November ballot to prevent the possibility of gay marriages.

    A same-sex marriage ban passed in August in Missouri, another presidential battleground state, with 71 percent of the vote.

    Both Bush and Kerry have said they oppose same-sex marriage but would support states establishing civil unions for gay and lesbian couples. Bush supports a federal constitutional amendment outlawing same-sex marriage, which Kerry opposes.

    However, the Democratic nominee has expressed support for an amendment banning same-sex marriage in his home state of Massachusetts, which in May became the first jurisdiction in the nation to allow gay men and lesbians to marry.

    And after the vote in Missouri, Kerry also said he would have supported the amendment if he had been a voter in there.

    Michigan, with 17 electoral votes, went in the Democratic column four years ago, with Al Gore beating Bush by 5 points.

    Both campaigns have targeted the state in this year's campaign.

    http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/09/14/michi…

    • ebrayton

      I'm a bit baffled by Gary Glenn's point here. The new poll is not dated from 2004, it was done 2 weeks ago. The poll it was compared to is from 2004.

      • AFAMichigan

        My point, Ed, was to illustrate the likelihood that the new poll released this week is probably as reliable an indicator of true public sentiment in Michigan as the CNN/ Washington Post / Gallup poll was back in September 2004. In other words: not.

        • ebrayton

          That's possible, of course, and it would be convenient for your position, but it's not very likely. You cited one poll from 2004 that was wrong; that is the danger of looking at a single poll. But the trend in all of the polls, both in Michigan and around the nation, is quite clear. Support for gay marriage has gone up remarkably, opposition to it has gone down remarkably, and support for some form of legal recognition for same-sex relationships is now the majority position by a sizable margin. I know you don't want that to be true but it is. Whether you want to realize it or not, the nation is changing and your favored form of bigotry is on the way out. In 20 years, we will look back on this era and wonder what on earth was the big deal, just as we now look back on the controversy over interracial marriage and can't imagine why anyone ever opposed it. Your side has already lost. The young people today do not share your prejudice against gay people and the older voters who do are dying off. You've already lost, you just can't admit that.

          • AFAMichigan

            Ed, conveniently for our position, your “facts” aren't factual.

            For example…

            “GALLUP — May 27, 2009 — 'Majority of Americans Continue to Oppose Gay Marriage' by Jeffrey M. Jones. Americans' views on same-sex marriage have essentially stayed the same in the past year, with a majority of 57% opposed to granting such marriages legal status and 40% in favor of doing so. Though support for legal same-sex marriage is significantly higher now than when Gallup first asked about it in 1996, in recent years support has appeared to stall, peaking at 46% in 2007.”

            Meaning as to recent trend, support has dropped 6% in the last two years, according to Gallup. Of course, Gallup was wrong about MI in 2004, and they might be wrong now.

            As to young voters' position, Winston Churchill's old adage applies: “If you're under 30 and you're not a liberal, you don't have a heart. If you're over 30 and you're not a conservative, you don't have a brain.” As younger voters age, get married, have children, and realize the implications of this issue on their own children, they'll grow more conservative and thus more supportive of retaining traditional marriage.

            Plus the two fastest growing racial demographics in the U.S. — African-Americans and Hispanics, both of whom have some experience and moral authority on the issue of legitimate “civil rights” — are more supportive of preserving one-man, one-woman marriage than the population at large.

            Once again, you'll forgive us if we don't run up a white flag just because you're sending out invitations to a premature celebration party..

          • ebrayton

            Again you cite a single poll. And again, you reply to an argument I did not make. I specifically noted the support for gay marriage and civil unions combined. When you just ask whether they support gay marriage or not gay marriage, the polls typically show 55-60% say no gay marriage, 40% says yes. But if you ask the question slightly differently and add in the possibility of granting all of the rights of marriage without actually calling it that, support jumps significantly, up to between 60 and 70% on average. Your position, that same-sex relationships should get no legal recognition from the government at all, is a small minority now. And this has changed enormously over the last 5 years.

            Of course you're not going to run up the white flag on this issue. But frankly, I think the strident reaction from your segment of the world is made all the more inflated precisely because you do realize, on some level, that you've already lost. The official sanction of anti-gay bigotry is undergoing its death rattles at the moment, just as 40 years ago the official sanction of anti-black bigotry did so. The patterns are identical; the outcome will be too. By 2012, anti-gay marriage referendums will actually hurt the Republican party around the country. Within one generation, you and your fellow bigots will be viewed the same way we view those who fought against civil rights for blacks today (and yes, that includes black bigots like Ken Hutcherson, Alan Keyes and Ken Blackwell).

          • AFAMichigan

            Ed, don't you read your own posts? You did indeed make the argument to which I responded, as follows: “But the trend in all of the polls, both in Michigan and around the nation, is quite clear. Support for gay marriage has gone up remarkably, opposition to it has gone down remarkably.” As to the meaningless inclusion of the “marriage” and/or “civil union” option, so what? In 30 states, including a sizeable majority in which the ballot proposals prohibited legal recognition of “marriage” and “unions,” what was the practical utility of the “and/or” argument? None. They passed in all 30 states. And why wait a generation? Strident liberals who argue the minority view in support of so-called homosexual “marriage” already characterize Martin Luther King's daughter Bernice and niece Alveda and the Boy Scouts and the Salvation Army and Ken and Alan and Ken and myself as comparable to the Ku Klux Klan. Which will continue to help our side.

          • Pride09

            I agree with you Ed about the younger generation. They are the ones that are more accepting then the older generations and (like you said) we will look back at this time and wounder why people were opposed to it. That's why I always laugh when Gary Glenn say's we have to stop this for “our kids sake”, I mean, they are the ones who will be (and currently are) for gay marriage, the majority, even if their parents tell them otherwise. We all have our own opinions, own voices, and equal through the eyes of God.
            But I'm not going to waste my time arguing with Gary because he (as we all know) will always have the same opinion and can't admit defeat. It's a similar situation when I was arguing with a McCain supporter, and even after Obama was elected they couldn't accept the fact that it's over.. time's have changed.
            The AFA and other hate groups will always be out there, just like the KKK is still out there. But they won't be as strong and won't have an effect like they have in the past.

  • Pride09

    I agree with you Ed about the younger generation. They are the ones that are more accepting then the older generations and (like you said) we will look back at this time and wounder why people were opposed to it. That's why I always laugh when Gary Glenn say's we have to stop this for “our kids sake”, I mean, they are the ones who will be (and currently are) for gay marriage, the majority, even if their parents tell them otherwise. We all have our own opinions, own voices, and equal through the eyes of God.
    But I'm not going to waste my time arguing with Gary because he (as we all know) will always have the same opinion and can't admit defeat. It's a similar situation when I was arguing with a McCain supporter, and even after Obama was elected they couldn't accept the fact that it's over.. time's have changed.
    The AFA and other hate groups will always be out there, just like the KKK is still out there. But they won't be as strong and won't have an effect like they have in the past.

  • Pride09

    I agree with you Ed about the younger generation. They are the ones that are more accepting then the older generations and (like you said) we will look back at this time and wounder why people were opposed to it. That's why I always laugh when Gary Glenn say's we have to stop this for “our kids sake”, I mean, they are the ones who will be (and currently are) for gay marriage, the majority, even if their parents tell them otherwise. We all have our own opinions, own voices, and equal through the eyes of God.
    But I'm not going to waste my time arguing with Gary because he (as we all know) will always have the same opinion and can't admit defeat. It's a similar situation when I was arguing with a McCain supporter, and even after Obama was elected they couldn't accept the fact that it's over.. time's have changed.
    The AFA and other hate groups will always be out there, just like the KKK is still out there. But they won't be as strong and won't have an effect like they have in the past.

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