Court allows Mich. man’s AIG suit over Islamic insurance to go forward

By Ed Brayton | 05.29.09 | 11:14 am

(photo: Dave Burdick for Huffington Post via Flickr.com)

The U.S. District Court hearing a challenge by a Michigan man against the federal government for bailing out insurance giant AIG because the company sells Shariah-compliant insurance policies to Muslims in the U.S. and abroad has denied a motion to dismiss (PDF) the suit and allowed the case to move forward.

The case, Murray v Geithner, was filed last December by the Michigan-based Thomas More Law Center, founded by Domino’s creator Tom Monaghan. The TMLC calls itself the “sword and shield for people of faith,” but in this case, the group argues that because the U.S. government now owns a substantial piece of AIG after the bailout, the fact that the company markets products to Muslims that comply with their faith makes the bailout unconstitutional.

The complaint filed in the case argues that the funds given to AIG by the federal government as part of the financial bailout “are being used to finance Shariah-based Islamic religious activities in violation of the Establishment Clause.” The government immediately moved to dismiss the case, arguing that the plaintiff lacks standing to bring the suit. They base this on a series of Supreme Court rulings limiting the standing of plaintiffs to bring Establishment Clause suits merely because they are taxpayers and some tax money may be used wrongly.

Judge Lawrence Zatkoff, a Ronald Reagan appointee, ruled that the plaintiffs do have standing to bring the suit. He did not rule on the merits of the case, only concluding that the plaintiff’s allegations “raise a question of whether the Government’s involvement with AIG has created the effect of promoting religion and sufficiently raise Plaintiff’s claim beyond the speculative level, warranting dismissal inappropriate at this stage in the proceedings.”

When the suit was filed late last year, one of the foremost legal experts on the First Amendment, Eugene Volokh of the UCLA Law School, wrote that the legal theory the case was based on was exceedingly weak:

I’ve read the Complaint, and it seems to me that, once one strips away the “Islam is bad” arguments — arguments that surely don’t advance the Establishment Clause claim — one has the theory that the government may not invest in any company that, in part of its operations, provides products that are tailored to a particular religious faith, and that may be accompanied by donations to religious charities. …

That can’t be right, either under a Lemon primary purpose / primary effect theory or an endorsement theory, for the obvious reasons that the primary purpose here is to make money (or perhaps to lose as little taxpayer money as possible), the primary effect of the government action is to help AIG compete effectively by providing Muslim customers with what they want, and no reasonable person would assume the government is endorsing Islam by including AIG and all its subdivisions in the bailout package.

Several other First Amendment experts were considerably more blunt, with some even arguing that the case was so frivolous that it might lead to sanctions against the Thomas More Law Center for wasting the court’s time and resources. Such sanctions are allowed under Rule 11 of the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure, but the fact that the case survived a motion to dismiss makes such an outcome highly unlikely.

At this point, the government can appeal the ruling on the question of standing to the 6th Circuit Court of Appeals. Whether it plans to do so is not yet clear. Or they can go forward and argue the case in district court on the substantive issues. The fact that Judge Zatkoff refused to dismiss the case does not indicate that he will rule in the plaintiff’s favor, only that there is enough of an allegation to warrant a full examination of the matter by the court.

Comments

LegalizeDrugs

We should not tolerate the spread of Islam which is an existential threat not only to Israel but to our entire western culture. Islam hates women and jews and christians and goes out of its way to subjugate, punish and control non-muslims. The first thing we should do is start to monitor every mosque in the USA. Mark Montgomery boboberg@nyc.rr.com

wellwisherofall

You are lying. On the contrary, you should welcome Islam and Muslims because Muslims don't hate Western culture or Jews. For the last 13 hundred years Muslims haltered the Jews, especially when the Jews were hated by the Christian West. you are ungrateful and quipping up your mouth so quickly. What Muslims did to the Jews for all that long time feels like up to yesterday. If you are honest, you know that Israel was created on the land and home of other people followed by further occupation. That was illegal and immoral, yut put the Palestinian people and Muslims on the spot, like the people in other part of the world, Ireland, South Africa, etc. For the security of Israel you really don't need to do this against Muslims and Islam, all you need is to withdraw from the occupied land respectfully. You will find Muslims even they are the majority in America and Europe, will respect you as they did in the past. Muslims did not create or invite this crisis, you the Zionists did with the help of the West and it was wrong to create this situation and wrong trying to justify the wrongs while condemning the victims who are actually the innocent and compassionate, and you know it well.

Trajan8

Ignorance should not be responded to. You are obviously correct with what you say WellWish, and any objective obvserver can see LD's lack of… well, anything. When someone simply makes a remark of bigotry, we are luckily in an age where it is not taken seriously.

How the ignorance wins though is when others acknowledge their statements and try to counter them, when no counter is needed. They feel victorious just by getting someone with intelligence to waste time disputing their words. They play by a different scoreboard, one where points are not gained by who is logically correct, but by who can better raise the emotions of the opponent. And with their lack of empathy, their emotions stay level.

With that said, I do occasionally go against my own advice, since it is an easy way to show superiority. Like if YoshiN is trying to state that Islam is somehow worse than Christianity & Judaism, I would enjoy a discussion to easily point out the falsities in that thinking. It would be fun, but sadly it would probably result in me offending Christians & Jews, so I will abstain.

http://rainonlevs.livejournal.com/ KellyLogan

Well said Trajan8. I would only add that there are more who read than who comment, some of whom may have no other exposure to a subject like this, so these kinds of discussions can be opportunities to give those readers more information.

YoshiNakamura

Bravo to Judge Zatkoff! Even if the lawsuit eventually fails, at least the public will be alerted to the jihadist nature of Sharia finance which is just another way of advancing the cause of Islam in the world.

You cannot lump the “Abrahamic religions” into one without losing sight of Islam's essential uniqueness. “Abrahamic religions” do not practice the cruelties set forth in Leviticus — which is to say that Judaism and Christianity do not practice it.

All Islamic religious authorities agree that Islam is NOT a religion in the Western sense of the term, that is, essentially a private relationship between the believer and God. They agree that Islam is a complete code of life which organizes all aspects of life — personal, religious, civic, criminal, economic, military, etc according to Sharia holy law. They also agree that Islam must be imposed upon the entire world, willingly or by force. Thus, Islam is not just a religion, but also both a totalitarian and imperialist ideology. We must never lose sight of that fact. Here are a few quotations from Islamic authoritative sources:

FROM THE KORAN:

–The unbelievers are your inveterate enemy. (4:101)
– Mohammed is God's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another. (48:29).
– It is unlawful for a believer to kill another believer, accidents excepted. (4:92)
– Believers, take neither the Jews nor the Christians for your friends. (5:51)
– Make war on them until idolatry shall cease and God's religion shall reign supreme. (8:40)
– Fight against them until idolatry is no more and God's religion reigns supreme. (2:193)
– The true believers fight for the cause of God, but the infidels fight for the devil. (4:76)
– We will put terror into the hearts of the unbelievers. (3:151)
— I shall cast terror into the hearts of the infidels. Strike off their heads, strike off the very tips of their fingers. (8:12)

FROM THE SAYINGS OF MUHAMMAD:
– Muhammad said to the Jews: “If you embrace Islam, you will be safe. You should know that the earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle, and I want to expel you from this land. “

– Allah's Apostle said, “You (i.e. Muslims) will fight with the Jews till some of them will hide behind stones. The stones will (betray them) saying, 'O 'Abdullah (i.e. slave of Allah)! There is a Jew hiding behind me; so kill him.' ”

– Mohammed said, “I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, “None has the right to be worshipped but Allah, and whoever says, ” None has the right to be worshipped but Allah , his life and property will be saved by me.” (otherwise it will not). Vol. 4:196

– Mohammed said, “Whoever changes his Islamic religion, kill him.” Vol. 9:57

– Mohammed said, ” No Muslim should be killed for killing a Kafir” (infidel). Vol. 9:50

– Muhammad said: “Fight in the name of Allah and in the way of Allah. Fight against those who disbelieve in Allah. Make a holy war, … When you meet your enemies who are polytheists, invite them to three courses of action. If they respond to any one of these, you also accept it and withhold yourself from doing them any harm. Invite them to (accept) Islam; if they respond to you, accept it from them and desist from fighting against them….If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah's help and fight them. (Sahih Muslim 4294)

YUSUF QARADAWI, the spiritual leader of the Muslim brotherhood and the most popular and influential Islamic religious authority in the world today, is on the recommended reading list of local mosques. Among other Islamist-supremacist things, he wrote:

“Islam came to be followed, not to follow; to be dominant, not subordinate.”
“Islam came with it's complete, comprehensive, and eternal Sharia Law for the whole of mankind.”

ABUL MAUDUDI, the most important and popular Islamic writer of the 20th Century, wrote: “The goal of Islam is to rule the entire world and submit all of mankind to the faith of Islam. Any nation or power that gets in the way of that goal, Islam will fight and destroy.”

The statements about Islam above are from the most highly revered and respected Islamic sources, not from “Islamophobes”! To reveal these passages to the non-Moslem public is NOT spreading hatred toward Islam; it is merely revealing the truth about Islam, which all non-Moslems need to know.

Sharia finance helps the worldwide jihad against our civilization, and it needs to be opposed by our government, not fostered by it. Our government aid to AIG supports the Moslem terrorists as well as the non-terrorist Moslem supremacists.

wellwisherofall

Yes, Islam is not a religion in the western sense of the term. Rather it is a complete code of life. That is not to fight agaisnt Islam or people who adhere to this code of life. On the contrary, in respect for 1.5 billion Muslims in the world and over 9 million in the US and over 50 million in Europe, and over 30 million in Russia alone, let alone the rest of the rest of the world, Muslims' code of life should be respected, mainly because since Islam is not a religion, Church and state metaphor. Pursuing case agains AIG and condemning Islam in this fashion is hostile, dishonest, and insincere arguments against AIG and Muslims here and in the rest of the World. People must learn how to be respectful and appreciative of other faith and way of life, as the other people should also respect the Western code of life that is diametrically different from the Islamic way of life, such as alcoholism, gambling, adultery and fornication, free mixing or sex, colonialism, occupation, racism, and the trinity of faith, etc.

YoshiNakamura

Wellwisher is a phony. To give him the benefit of the doubt, let us say that he is just disingenuous. He writes: “People must learn how to be respectful and appreciative of other faith and way of life..” This is utter nonsense. Everything depends on just what that way of life is, and how it compares to our values. Should we appreciate the culture of cannibals just because it is part of their faith and way of life? Should we appreciate cultures that practice infanticide? Should we appreciate cultures that practice female genital mutilation? This practice, by the way, is widespread in the Moslem world and is seriously debated by Moslem religious authorities — but it is not condemned. Should we appreciate Nazism? Should we appreciate a culture and faith that openly rejects the Universal Declaration of Human Rights which guarantees freedom of religion, freedom of conscience, equality before the law and gender equality? ALL Moslem countries reject the Universal Declaration of Human Rights! Instead, with the approval of their highest Islamic religious authorities, they subscribe to the Cairo Declaration of Human Rights in Islam which openly declares Islam to be superior to everything else, and which makes ALL human rights subject to Islamic sacred law, Shariah, which calls for war against non-Moslems, subjugation of non-Moslems, discrimination against non-Moslems, subjugation of women, death for Moslems who want to change their religion, etc. And, you say that we, in the West, should respect that?????????
wellwishrofall

Well Wisher is not what you telling, but an honest, fair minded, just, and God fearing person. What you are saying here against Islam and Muslims is not new. Some are true, most are false and exaggerated, and all are irrelevant. Much more and worst could be said against Christianity, Judaism and its adherents, in the same way you are saying. Look West was not a Christian society. It became. It may change again to Islam. No big deal, because it all depends on people, democracy! What you are doing now, because of your fear that is stemming from the guilt feelings, is also not new. You have been doing against each other, against Black people, against the natives, against the Jews, and much earlier, against Catholics, against Irish. Did you do any good to yourself or harm the victims? You did not help yourself but harmed the victims mercilessly, you never stopped and now doing harm on Muslims! Is it good, only time will tell and you will find out in the life after when God will take account of all evil and good that you are involved in, everybody for that matter. You put Muslims and Arabs on the spot by creating this illegal and immoral Zionist Israel, and yet hurting them as what you are doing. You could be much respected and happyer today without committing this injustice on the people of Palestine and live peacefully everywhere. Remember how Muslims treated you in your bad days! May God guide you and give you understanding, honesty and sincerity. No one else can help you, a soul that is sealed.
YoshiNakamura

Wellwisher apparently has difficulty reading simple English. I didn't say anything bad about Islam. I simply reported indisputable objective facts about Islam. It is up to the reader to determine whether or not these facts make Islam look bad. The fact is that religious Moslems think those facts make Islam look good! Only people who share the values of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights would think that these facts about Islam make Islam look bad. It's all relative. For example, if the Koran dehumanizes non-Moslems when it says that non-Moslems are the vilest of animals and the lowest of creatures, religious Moslems think that this is good. Non-Moslems, of course, don't want to think of themselves as the vilest of animals, and so they think this makes Islam look bad. At least, the readers have the objective facts so that they can judge for themselves, according to their own values, whether or not Islam is bad. Wellwisher is nothing but a hack Moslem propagandist who scrupulously avoids dealing with the passages in the Koran and Hadith which make Islam look bad in the eyes of non-Moslems but which religious Moslems support.

wellwishrofall

So, you are saying that Islam is good for religious Muslims and bad for non-Muslims. What a big deal! What I am saying is this: stop bashing Islam or Muslims and campaigning against Muslims in America and blocking Muslim immigration. This is shameful, hostile and confrontational. Instead, learn to respect Muslims as you are doing with all but Muslims. Why? you and the rest of the world know it. I suggest that you start a new phase of respecting Muslims and Islam, they will do the same to you. Don't worry much about your situation in Palestine. All you need is to withdraw from the occupied land and Muslims will forgive you for the past injustice that you and the West inflicted upon them. Muslims and Arabs are kind and forgiving people. Don't continue closing your eyes that you, the Zionists and the colonial minds of the West put Muslims on the spot to resist the injustice. What would you do, if it was upon you? You can fight 1.5 billion Muslims, but you can also win them by simply being ashamed of what you have been doing to them since 1917. You will remembered by people for good and bad performance. The problem is you don't care about right and wrong, just and unjust, evil and virtue, hell and heaven, honest and dishonest, true and untrue, and goes on. If you would fear God, you would not be behaving this way.

YoshiNakamura

Mr. Wellwisher, I did NOT say that Islam is good for religious Muslims. What I said is that religious Muslims consider Islam to be good. That's a little different. According to the values of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, the totalitarian, imperialist and supremacist values of Islam are bad for everyone, including religious Muslims. You want non-Moslems to respect Islam? How is it possible to respect a belief system which calls non-believers the lowest of animals and which will not grant them equal rights? How is it possible to respect a belief system which says that all non-Moslems are enemies? How is it possible to respect a belief system which says that women are inferior to men and must not have equal rights with men? How is it possible to respect a belief system which wants to murder people who insult it? Your call for respect for Islam is absolutely outrageous! The only non-Moslem who can respect Islam is one who is totally ignorant of Islam. That is why it is so important to encourage non-Moslems to read the Koran and the sayings of Muhammad, instead of listening to Moslem propagandist hacks and liars who do not want us to know what Islam is all about. All non-Moslems should go straight to the horse's mouth and read the Koran for themselves. What do you say about that, “Wellwisher”? Would you like non-Moslems to read your holy book? Yes or no? I strongly recommend it! Will you call me an Islam-basher because I recommend that people read the Koran for themselves???

wellwishrofall

Mr. Yoshi Nakamura:
I read Bible also. Talk about how the Zionists are acting upon the Bible in Palestine. That is Bible in practice of robbing other people's land, home, killing its inhabitants, treating them as dirts, defying the legal and moral call of human right against occupation, and all these are being inflicted upon the people who sheltered the perpetrators in their bad days. You see the Quranic teaching in practice, but only to resist injustice and intrusion. Where is Islamic totalitarianism in practice? Quranic teaching is not how you are making people to read. It is contextual, one has to be honest to translate Quran right. Islam was much more popular in the world for the last 1300 years because of its ideal as a way of life than the democracy now. It gave people freedom and respect. You are lier branding Islam as a totaleterian way of life. When Islam was world power all people were safe and secure, was it not true for the Jews? Even at the time of Nazi aggression, the King of Morocco refused to give him the list of the Jews in Morocco. That was a risk the King took, not necessarily for the Jews but for his moral obligation, but it saved the Jews against the wish of Hitler, Morocco was under Hitler at the time. Should not you be grateful for that? But you are not, how can you be when you decidedly rob other peoples right and insist on it to justify and cover up the truth about it? You will never feel like being grateful, that is what God has made you and your people. You are against Islam, fine. You are not Muslim any way, why do you worry. Don't campaign any more against them because it is criminal and God will not allow you doing this for ever. Look at yourself and what you have done to Muslims and Islam, as an embodiment of the teaching of your Bible. Truly, I cannot believe human being can be so evil and so content about it without any remorse.

YoshiNakamura

Here is what the greatest Islamic religious authorities say about Islam:
——————————————————————————–

Ayatollah Khomeini, the most important Moslem leader of the 20th Century, said: “Those who know nothing of Islam pretend that Islam counsels against war. Those who say this are witless. Islam says: Kill all the unbelievers just as they would kill you all! Does this mean that Muslims should sit back until they are devoured? Islam says: Kill them, put them to the sword and scatter their armies…. Islam says: whatever good there is exists thanks to the sword and in the shadow of the sword! People cannot be made obedient except with the sword! the sword is the key to Paradise, which can be opened only for the Holy Warriors! There are hundreds of other Koranic psalms and Hadiths urging Muslims to value war and to fight. Does all this mean that Islam is a religion that prevents men from waging war? I spit upon those foolish souls who make such a claim.”

——————————————————————————–
“The meaning of the term 'terror' used by the media… is Jihad for the sake of Allah. Jihad is the peak of Islam. Moreover, some of the clerics … see it as the sixth pillar of Islam. Jihad –whether Jihad of defense of Muslims and of Islamic lands such as in Chechnya, the Philippines, and Afghanistan, or Jihad aimed at spreading the religion — is the pinnacle of terror, as far as the enemies of Allah are concerned. The Muhajeed who goes out to attain a martyr's death or victory and returns with booty is a terrorist as far as the enemies of Allah are concerned… Jihad is the peak of Islam… Jihad, oh believers, is an integral part of our religion. The word 'terror' is used to damage this mighty and blessed foundation.” — Sheikh Wajdi Hamza Al-Ghazawi, Al-Manshawi Mosque, Mecca, October 6, 2001.
——————————————————————————–

All of the following comes verbatim from the Reliance of the Traveler: Classic Manual of Islamic Sacred Law, (Amana Publications, Beltsville MD, revised edition 1994) approved by the highest ranking and most respected modern Islamic religious leaders and scholars. Islamic holy law, Sharia, defines jihad this way: “Jihad means to war against non-Muslims. .. The scriptural basis for jihad, prior to scholarly consensus, is such Koranic verses as “Fighting is prescribed for you ” (Koran 2:216) “Slay them wherever you find them” (Koran 4:89) “Fight the idolaters utterly” (Koran 9:36)
and such hadiths as the one related by Bukhari and Muslim that the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) said: “I have been commanded to fight people until they testify that there is no god but Allah and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah…”

and the hadith reported by Muslim, “To go forth in the morning or evening to fight in the path of Allah is better than the whole world and everything in it.”

In the chapter Objectives of Jihad, we read: “The Caliph makes war upon Jews, Christians and Zoroastrians…until they become Muslim or pay the non-Muslim poll tax…” and “The caliph fights all other people until they become Muslim.”
——————————————————————————–

Sheik Yusuf Qaradawi, spiritual leader of the Muslim Brotherhood:

“Islam came to be followed, not to follow; to be dominant, not subordinate.”

“Islam came with its complete, comprehensive and eternal sharia (law) for the whole of mankind.”
——————————————————————————–

From Jihad in Islam by Sayyeed Abdul A'la Maududi, the most prolific and most widely read Islamic writer of the 20th Century:

“The goal of Islam is to rule the entire world and submit all of mankind to the faith of Islam. Any nation or power that gets in the way of that goal, Islam will fight and destroy.”
——————————————————————————–

Ali Gom’a, the grand mufti of Egypt, the highest Muslim religious authority in the world, supports murdering non-Muslims. In the daily Al Ahram (April 7, 2008), he says, “Muslims must kill non-believers wherever they are unless they convert to Islam.” He also compares non-Muslims to apes and pigs, not only the Jews.
———————————————————-
Muhammad Sayyid Al Tantawi, president of Al Azhar University also approves of killing and maiming Christians, Jews, and other infidels. He added, “This is not my personal view. This what the Shari’a Law says, the law of Allah, the only valid law on the earth.”
—————————————————
Yousef Al Qaradhawi, the spiritual leader of the fundamentalist organization, the Muslim Brothers, urged on Al Jazeera TV (Jan. 9, 2009) Muslims to kill the Jews, not only in Israel but also worldwide. He added, “No peace can be made between us (Muslims) and the non-believers. This what our holy book says. This what Allah says.”
———————————————-
Abul Maududi, the most widely read and respected Islamic thinker of the 20th Century, said: “Islam wishes to destroy all States and Governments anywhere on the face of the earth which are opposed to the ideology and programme of Islam regardless of the country or the Nation which rules it. The purpose of Islam is to set up a State on the basis of its own ideology and programme, regardless of which Nation assumes the role of the standard bearer of Islam or the rule of which nation is undermined in the process of the establishment of an ideological Islamic State.” –Sayeed Abdul A'la Maududi (1903-1979 A. D.), Jihad in Islam p9
YoshiNakamura

Mr. 'Wellwisher,
1) I see that your “wellwishing” is not for all. Certainly not for the Jews. Here we were talking about Islam, and you start your ranting against Israel. We all understand that Islam is inherently anti-Semitic, and here you are proving it.
2)Why are you talking about the Bible? We were talking about the Koran and the Hadith. What has the Bible got to do with this discussion? I assume you are trying to say that the Bible is as bad as the Koran, and therefore we have no right to criticize the Koran. So, do you really think that the Koran is bad, too? Do you really think that the Koran is no better than the Bible? Otherwise, why would you bring in the Bible for comparison, when we were talking only about the Koran?
3) You say that all this Koranic “teaching in practice” (that is, violence against non-Moslems) is only for resisting injustice and intrusion. Bullshit. It is only because Islam preaches violent jihad against non-Moslems. “Make war on them until Islam reigns supreme in the world”!
4) Where is Islamic totalitarianism in practice, you ask? Taliban Afghanistan. Taliban Pakistan. Somalia. Saudi Arabia. Islamic Republic of Iran. To a lesser degree in all Moslem countries where there are restrictions of freedom of speech and freedom of religion.
5) Don't give us that crap about translating the Koran “right”. The translations are made by expert linguists. The translations are commissioned by Islamic religious authorities, approved by Islamic religious authorities and distributed by Islamic religious authorities. And, curiously, all the translations pretty much agree with one another independently.
6) You say the Koran is contextual? Also, crap. In an earlier post, I gave you a whole bunch of quotations from the Koran. You say they are contextual? O.K., then give me the context that makes those passages mean something other than what they so obviously appear to mean. I challenge you! The fact is that the Koran is to be read literally. It says what it says. All Moslem terrorists quote the Koran in order to justify their murderous deeds — and they did not read the Koran in translation!
7) You say that Islam gave people “freedom”? You sure have a sense of humor! The very name “Islam” means “submission”, not freedom! The most popular Arabic name is “Abdullah” which means “slave of Allah” — not freedom! Freedom to do what? Certainly, not freedom of religion, because apostasy is punishable by death (“Anyone who changes his Islamic religion — kill him!”). Certainly not freedom of speech: anyone who utters anything that is considered an insult to Islam is also punished, usually by death, for blasphemy. According to accepted Shariah, even Moslems do not have the freedom to say “hello” to whomever they want: Moslem men are forbidden to say “as Salam alaykum” to women, and Moslems are forbidden to say it to non-Moslems. Moslem women are forbidden to marry non-Moslem men. Moslem women do not have freedom because the Koran requires them to obey Moslem men. The list could go on and on. There is no freedom in Islam, and you know it. The purpose of Islam is to serve Allah, not to be free!
8) You are the liar when you say that Islam is not totalitarian. You said that Islam is a “complete way of life”. Don't you know that another word for “complete” is “total”? That is the very definition of totalitarian.
9) During the time of the Nazis, the Moslems were allies of Hitler! The Mufti of Jerusalem helped Hitler to form two murderous SS divisions of Moslems in Bosnia, for example. What do you think about the Mufti of Jerusalem? He sure had more influence than the King of Morocco.
10) Why do I worry? Precisely because I am not Moslem, and I know that Islam wants to kill or subjugate non-Moslems, just like the Koran says they are supposed to do.
11) Evil is in the eye of the beholder. In Islam, the greatest evil is the “crime” of disbelief! Rejecting belief in Islam is a greater crime in Islam than rape, murder or even genocide. It is the only crime which Allah will not pardon! Civilized people reject that notion of evil. Obviously, you favor it. In the eyes of civilized people who accept the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, you are the evil one!
wellwishrofall

Hello Yoshi Nakamura: I wish well for all by taking stand against evil mongers and speaking for the victims, especially your victims.

You are desperate and an evil minded Zionist, not a Jew, because real Jews are not Zionists and they are in tens of thousands, if not in millions. Does the incidence in Morocco looks like Muslims are anti Jews? Why don't you talk about Muslims protected Jews for over thousand years, when they were persecuted by the Christians everywhere? Do Muslims treatment of Jews for that long time looks like they hate Jews?

You want the world to condone your crimes in Palestine, don't you? If not, everybody is anti Jews? Good illusion and good trap! Live with it and wait for God to decide on you. No, you have no reasons to insult Quran this way. Bible and the Quran are not the same in terms of authenticity, but Bible is your reference in action upon the people of Palestine.

The initial topic was not the Quran but Islam as a way of life in relation to the AIG insurance policy. You twisted it to the insult of the Quran. So, I am telling you to stop such act of insult by referring to your Bible in action. Islam is the religion of 1.5 billion people. They are fighting for their causes in their land, you have no reason to campaign against Muslims here, but that is what you are doing. This is not good. I wish you all the best and pray that you stop plotting against innocent Muslims here and elsewhere.

This is my last response to you.
patriot40

Thank you Yoshi Nakamura. Your arguments show that obviously, you know more about what is actually said in the Quran than this Muslim. This is not a surprise, since many muslims have never read it, they only listen to imams in mosques that are supported by Wahhabi dollars from Saudi Arabia (the most restrictive kind of Islam)

Thank you for not falling for this “wellwishrofall”'s taqiyya. And wellwisher, if you truly believe all the crap you are throwing around, you need to read the Media verses of the Quran and realize that MANY other Americans ARE reading them, and we are not going to stay silent about this threat to our own government..
wellwishrofall

May God save the Palestinians, Muslims and the rest of the world from the harm and plots of the Zionists.
MadDog1

Whew! Finally it seems America is waking up to the real threat of Islam/Koran/Sharia. I guess “wellwishrofall” forgets about all the other financial institutions that have had investigations and indictments for Sharia-compliant finances funding terrorists organizations like Hamas, etc.

Wellwishrofall. Baloney! All your comments are complete baloney. Only an ignoramus would believe that crap your spewing.

http://rainonlevs.livejournal.com/ KellyLogan

MadDog1 has an excellent point: If more people in the USA found out the truth about Islam and how it promotes peace, thoughtfulness and justice, if they found out the truth about the Koran and how similar it is to the Bible, and if they found out the amount of money that Muslims have donated through the charity of Sharia to try and help the victims of the USAs wars, that *would* be a real threat to those who want to maintain the status quo.

MadDog1 also brings up the investigations from the Bush era that should also be examined more closely by US citizens. A perfect example is the recent “Holy Land Foundation” where men like Ghassan Elashi were sentence to prison sixty-five years for being a part of a charity that was found absolutely to be *providing charity*; food for children, medical supplies…, etc. People should see that a good father and well-known pillar of his community can be convicted in this country by secret evidence of providing charity, of giving money to the same groups the US government has. People should know how hypocritical and unjust our courts can be twisted into being. http://www.democracynow.org/2009/5/29/holy_land

http://rainonlevs.livejournal.com/ KellyLogan

It is unfortunate that those that have the money like Illitch to make a positive difference in our society and world spend it instead on groups like the Thomas More Law Center in order to foster religious divisions and dominance.

I don't remember Illitch's Christian 'sword and shield' group filing complaints when Pres. Bush directed government funds directly to *Christian* charities and promoted _their_ work.

The phenomenal hypocrisy of a man running a company that funded an entire Christian town attacking an insurance company that has an insurance product that is religiously aware boggles the mind. Of course, it's okay for *Dominos* to offer Muslim-only products: http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-an…

The posters here have shown excellent examples of what this sham of a lawsuit is really for: Inflaming anti-Islamic fervor and continuing the catastrophic strategy of demonizing Muslims in order to keep them as a political target. In addition to creating more enemies from the majority of Muslims who still respect and admire the ideals the USA espouses, this strategy diffuses the focus against the few dangerous radicals that we do need to be concerned about.

The longer a suit like this continues, and the more legitimacy it is given by American citizens, the more aid and comfort will be given to Al Qaeda and other radical groups and their claims that the USA is not fighting just against them, but against all Muslims.
MadDog1

LoL Kelly! Jihad is nothing, aboslutely nothing, new to the world. It has been going on for 1,400 years. I'm really not surprised that a white woman would run to the defense of something she really doesn't know anything about. Perhaps Kelly needs to travel to Iran or Saudi Arabia where a pure a Islamic government and (in)justice court can remind her on how women are really treated just to whet her appepiate about Islam.

Ah yes, the evil American U.S. courts compared to the Islamic Sharia courts?!?! Sick, twisted liberally and poltically correct, backwards thinking crap.

http://rainonlevs.livejournal.com/ KellyLogan

Once again MadDog1 points out something important that people should know: Jihad is not new, and has been used for centuries. Jihad is a “religious duty” and in general usage in the Muslim world is what an Imam calls on his people to do, like contribute to charity, to treat others with fairness and humility, to consider others perspectives, etc. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihad

Once again, it is a small, radical minority who have used the religious tool of jihad as a weapon, the same way that radical Christians, Jews and the rest have used tools of their religion as weapons of war. MadDog1's ignorance is his weakness, and similar ignorance has cost this country trillions of dollars and thousands of lives while making the real enemy stronger. Isn't it time we start fighting smarter, not just rabidly barking and biting at whatever catches our eye?

Unlike MadDog1, who apparently feels our courts only need to be better than the worst Sharia court he can imagine, I hold my courts to the standard of the US Constitution. I believe in the United States of America as a country that should represent freedom, liberty and justice, and I'm willing as a citizen to honestly look at my country and work to move forward to those ideals. It's easy to lounge in jingoism and point to others instead of yourself, but that's not what this country was founded on. The USA offers an opportunity to its citizens, not a promise; if you work, you can make this country better. Before you start talking about other peoples', take the time to clean your own house.

M44

Is it true that in order for AIG or any other company to be 'sharia compliant', it has to eliminate all traffic in matters that Islam considers haram, like alcohol, pigs, etc., possibly anything to do with Israel?

patriot40

Yes. The strings attached to sharia compliant finance are long. Also, it is forbidden in the Quran to give Zakat (money) to non-muslims. Wonder how muslims justify this to American taxpayers? Oh yeah, they don't. They just lie and say it is for everyone, and expect us stupid Americans that don't read their history or the Quran to nod and let them tell US what we need to know.
Remind me again- who are the ones rioting because of cartoons, to name one example of thousands?
http://rainonlevs.livejournal.com/ KellyLogan

Good question M44; like any religious issue, it is a matter of interpretation. It's like asking if a mutual fund that follows 'Christian principles' could invest in military defense contractors; some Christian leaders would say yes, some would say no.

Several years ago, Western banks started to tap in to the pool of Muslims for new customers by offering financial objects that were Sharia-compliant: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5064058.stm

Like 'Green' or 'Socially Conscious' products, there is no single set of standards that are applicable, only general principles that everyone interprets for themselves: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_banking

More to the point, this is a single set of products that are run according to certain principles, not the entire bank. Like a restaurant that offers Halal food, they set up an area that is run in a certain way, but that doesn't affect the rest of the customers (except those who are so sadly prejudiced that it frightens them to when other people eat things that are *different* ;^).

M44

wellwishrofall says:

“You are against Islam, fine. You are not Muslim any way, why do you worry. Don't campaign any more against them because it is criminal and God will not allow you doing this for ever.”

Two questions on this:
1) “it is criminal”
Do you mean 'criminal' as defined in Islam? If that's so, what Islamic law was broken? Please reference. Are you saying that it is criminal in America? What American law was broken here? A lot of statements were made in this conversation – can you specify what statements broke a law? You would have to do that in an American court.

2) “God will not allow you doing this forever.”
Where does this come from? Is it somewhere in Islamic writing? You aren't just saying this as a personal threat, are you?

I mean these questions seriously – I don't know enough about Islam to know the answers from an Islamic perspective. I don't think that any American laws were broken.

wellwishrofall

Hello there: you have two questions about how one could be criminal and how God will ot allow a criminal forever?

Any thin that is illegal is criminal, by all standard, legal, ethical, and moral, especially the Zionist plot to defame Islam and Muslims in America. While this is aggravating, there will be a time when God will intervene, it is just matter of time, because God is just and fair, especially in protecting the victims against the criminals. Got it?
I am not going to respond to you any further.
http://rainonlevs.livejournal.com/ KellyLogan

I can't support Wellwish's manner here, but if you read the story, you'll see that there are rules against frivilous lawsuits, and the Thomas More Law Center's actions may leave them open to sanction under them.

In a more general sense, attacking the entire Muslim community is not only unethical, but short-sighted and self-destructive. Any experienced and successfull cop or intelligence officer will tell you that most suspects are found because someone turns them in. The actions of the Bush administration and its widespread sweeps of Muslim or Muslim-ish people in the US were devastating; we lost one of our best sources of information, blinding ourselves when we need reliable data the most. Here in Dearborn I saw the progression:
1.) Right after 9/11/2001, there were demonstrations, public shows of support for the US and decrying Al Qaeda. If the Bush administration had reached out to groups, they could have created a network of information that would have reached back into the Middle East.
2.) Then came the sweeps – Every Middle Eastern male was told he had to report for some 'interview' with authorities. People started disappearing, with no explanation, no way to find out what happened. People shrank back, and became frightened of INS, of police, of any authority.
3.) Then reports started coming in of some of the disappeared turning up in countries they supposedly had been given asylum from. They were watched, jailed, tortured, as one would expect. People pulled back further.
4.) Prominent Muslims were targetted for ridiculous charges of supporting terrorism because they ran charities or spoke out against US military actions. People saw US courts using secret evidence, closed hearings and the kind of public propaganda that they had left their countries to escape. The community became further chilled and people started to have to choose between supporting the US and supporting their families and friends.
5.) Then the Bush Administration tried to recruit people for translators and information sources, and were surprised when they couldn't get any.

Between that and the Plame affair where the Bush administration showed it would betray even the most valuable covert asset for political revenge, our intelligence network has been devastated. If powerful people like Illitch would let go of selfish politics and use his millions to start building bridges and helping his community, we could reverse that. If these rabid patriots had the balls to break their political leashes, start supporting US principles and ideals again and attacking the kinds of tactics that the terrorists use, we could reverse the damage that has been done and is being done to this nation's security. Most of all though, we just need everyone to be more involved and informed, to make their own decisions and make this more a country for and of the people.

MadDog1

Kelly, stop foaming at the mouth. Sharia law is the law in Islamic country. (In)justice courts ruled by Sharia are the norm not the exception. You seem hell-bent on making up excuses for Islam. BTW due to the sheer size of muslims worldwide (1.5 billion), it only takes a small minority of radical “Islamists” to challenge the U.S. At 10% or lower they are equal to or greater than the entire U.S. population. That is not anything to sneeze at.

Just like Hilter and the Nazies, it only takes a small percentage to bully the masses to do their will.

I agree on one part and that is on President Bush's philosophy on the War on Terror was in error. The terrorists acts on 9/11 and since are tactics Jihadists use. The doctrine behind it is the Koran and Mohammed which are very similar to Mein Kampf and Hilter.

Kelly, please remove your head out of your a-hole and do some real research on Jihad, Sharia Law, and the Koran. Thanks.

http://rainonlevs.livejournal.com/ KellyLogan

As usual, the ignorant attack and the knowledgeable discuss. I have tried to give you some measure of credit MadDog1, but as your name suggests, all you seem to know how to do is blindly attack. I hope people who seem to be actually looking to inform themselves, like M44, are not scared off by belligerents like yourself who when pressed to defend their ridiculous fear-mongering fall back on “Nazi” references and personal attacks.

I do have to give you credit though for your real gift at destroying your own arguments. If the Muslim population is so massive that 10% is a threat, a better strategy is to work _with_ the 99% of them that are not radicals. Instead of trying to destroy a beneficial financial offering that allows Muslims to do charitable work, try supporting Muslims making positive contributions and work with them to find and denounce the small percentage of radicals that are doing harm. That's what we and other countries have been doing against radical threats like this for decades.

I also like your point that a small, radical percentage of nutjobs can “bully the masses to do their will” – as the last election showed, the time for that in the USA is past. The time for hand-wringing children afraid to deal with 'scary people' is past. So people like yourself are still welcome to run around with your Chicken Little stories of what 'could happen,' but please don't be hurt when the rest of us ignore you so we can get real work done based on what *is* happening.

M44

Following KellyLogan's URL to Wikipedia, I find: “Sharia prohibits… investing in businesses that provide goods or services considered contrary to its principles (Haraam, forbidden).” This suggests to me that it is likely that American financial institutions that begin to deal in Sharia financing will eventually be forced to abandon their Haraam products, as their financial dependence on SF increases.

Can we rely on Muslim communities' desire to preserve the Western values of the institutions that they find? There is a steadily growing list of grievances and demands that speak to the contrary. Examples: refusal of cab drivers to carry passengers who have alcohol or dogs; refusal of grocery store clerks to serve customers who buy alcohol; eliminating parts of public school art curriculum (drawing people); exchanging Labor Day for Eid holiday; legislating “Islam Day” in Hawaii; installing foot baths in university bathrooms; and others.

While many American Muslims surely do want to assimilate, they don't seem to have much power over the 'radical' element. It is impossible to know how large that element is, especially when we don't really know what we mean by “radical”. What we do sense is that radical Muslims have a loud voice and intense organization here in America, and that voice is not countered by the Muslim community. There are cases in which 'moderate' Muslim voices have been demonized and ostracized by whole Muslim communities; the case of Zuhdi Jasser in Arizona is stellar.

KellyLogan says she is from Dearborn, the largest American Muslim community. In 2006 there were rallies and protests all over the country concerning the Israel-Lebanon war, and a popular poster read “WE ARE HEZBOLLAH”. A huge portion of the Dearborn community, including imams, participated; there was no visible second opinion visible on the streets. Hezbollah is an anti-semitic, genocidal (exterminate the Jews) organization; their leader, Hassan Nasrallah is known for saying, among other similar statements “: “If they (Jews) all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide.”

In short, we cannot rely on 'moderate Muslims' to give significant support to the retention of Western values. If anyone is a tiny minority, an endangered species, they are. Where is contrary evidence? There is evidence that sharia law is on the advance, and that every little step, innocent as it may seem if you don't look at the larger picture, helps to establish it. 'Moderate' Muslims are powerless to stop it.

http://rainonlevs.livejournal.com/ KellyLogan

Well, that's reasonably stated M44, bravo for that. I don't find your conclusions very well-founded however, particularly those founded on disinformation.

First, you jump to the wild conclusion that since Muslims will not invest in companies that are Haraam, that this requirement will somehow leap out of the Muslim-friendly products to control all of the rest. Where has this happened? Did I miss the time that a bank offering Kosher financial products here was forced to remove pork from all of its other funds? Should we close down all Christian oriented financial products so that they do not 'take over' all the other ones?

How can you even ask about Muslim communities' desires, which have been well demonstrated to be peaceful and positive in this country, when you yourself are so willing to tear down one of the principle institutions in this country, the freedom of religion?!? Is there even a tenth of the reports that you mention compared to the number of reports of Christian fundamentalists pushing religious icons like the ten commandments into state and federal buildings, prayer and religious texts like creationism into public schools, forcing communities of diverse religions to pay for Christian rituals like Christmas and Easter displays on state land, Christian doctors and pharmacists who refuse treatment to patients and customers who want birth control? Is there a hundredth of the minority of Muslims in this country who are trying to preserve their traditions compared to the 'Western' majority who are trying to preserve theirs? I think there's a beam in your eye, friend; I suggest you remove that first.

And then, rather than rely on what appear to be rather dubious sources, why not establish some facts? In 2006, there were rallies here, in support of Lebanon, and to ask the US to intervene to protect their friends and families back home from Israel's brutal and blatantly criminal aggression. The US, did not stop Israel's attacks, but Hezbollah did; why is it surprising to you that this drew support?!?

On the other hand, I don't need to use wild speculation like yours to show the results of blind attacks on the Islamic community; we have seen it for the last decade. Loss of intelligence, increase in radicalism, the true threats slipping through our fingers as precious resources are redirected toward political and economic targets, the corrosion of our the rights and ideals that gave this country moral standing in the world. Bin Laden, escaped, Al Qaeda transformed into a global network of diverse cells and organizations, our military humbled, our economy bankrupted.

In short, attacking good people because you're scared of what they *might* do is not only immoral, its inefficient and ultimately self-destructive. It's time to stop wild speculation in this country and time to start doing the hard and dirty work of dealing with reality.

Have you even considered what the results of this issue would be if you were to get what you wanted? The lifeblood of a movement like Al Qaeda is money; follow the money and you find the men, cut off the money and you cripple the movement. If the majority of Muslims use public, visible financial objects for their investment and charity, then the majority of money will be in the open and easily tracked, more difficult for terrorist supporters to use for transferring funds. If, on the other hand, you destroy those public financial objects, force well-meaning Muslims to use private, secretive channels of finance, then you create a large and well -funded underground market that will be that much harder to trace, once again making things that much easier for terrorists.

http://rainonlevs.livejournal.com/ KellyLogan

What is tragically amusing in this is that once again, conservatives are working so very hard to help the terrorists.

The lifeblood of a movement like Al Qaeda is money; follow the money and you find the men, cut off the money and you cripple the movement. If the majority of Muslims use public, visible financial objects for their investment and charity, then the majority of money will be in the open and easily tracked, more difficult for terrorist supporters to use for transferring funds. If, on the other hand, you destroy those public financial objects, force well-meaning Muslims to use private, secretive channels of finance, then you create a large and well -funded underground market that will be that much harder to trace, once again making things that much easier for terrorists.
MadDog1

Kelly, the lifeblood of Al Qaeda is the Koran. Wine, women, and booty are a plenty in heaven for martyr's of Jihad. That's why they are so ready to die for Islam. 72 virgins ring a bell?

And no sweetie, I did not destroy my own argument. Your weak minded attempt to justify Islam and the Koran will backfire if you think appeasing to the masses will work. Yeah sure, there are peaceful muslims but where are these “moderates” when it counts. Silent.

The reason they are silent is because they agree in part or in whole that Jihad and Sharia complaint financing that finances Jihad. The other problem is the they want Islam to rule the world as written in the Koran. It is their destination. Unfortunately, the Koran, Sharia, and Jihad is antithesis to everything our constitution and bill of rights stands for.

Kelly, you being a woman. Your the one who should be worried about Islam. Under Islam and Sharia you will virtually have no rights. If not for yourself think about all the women in pure Islamic countries and in future generations of women.

Appeasing to the muslim masses will not work. It has never worked. Trying to be politically correct and implying that all cultures and religions are equal is a farce. So yes, Islam is just like Nazi Germany and Imperialists Japan when they thought they were the master race. This time a supremacist ideology is masquerading as a religion which it really isn't as evident in numerous pure Islamic countries like Saudi Arabia and Iran to just a couple.

That's why it's imprtant to dicuss, debat, and flesh out this ideology now and yes some people will be more passionate than others. So once again Kelly, I really don't give a damn about your precious little feelings. Get your head out of your a-hole and get a clue.

http://rainonlevs.livejournal.com/ KellyLogan

MadDog1, sweetie, I agree that Al Qaeda leaders preach a doctrine of purity and power that is similar to Nazi rhetoric, which is similar to Crusade rhetoric, which is similar to a hundred other rhetorics used by a hundred other leaders who needed a way to divorce regular people from regular morals and values. It's a tool, honeybun. There is nothing in Al Qaeda rhetoric that is unique, it uses it's culture's scriptures the same way Nazis and Crusaders used the Bible, which, by the way is also just as against “everything our Constitution and Bill of Rights stand for.”

I also agree that it's important to discuss these things, which is why it is unfortunate that you make such efforts to stifle debate and discussion by making baseless accusastions, wild speculations and throwing insults whenever someone reasonably points out that you don't have a factual foot to stand on.

If think you're actually capable of discussing this rationally, tell me this: What do you base your statement that the majority of Muslims have no effect on the minority of radical elements? What evidence would you require to disprove this?

http://rainonlevs.livejournal.com/ KellyLogan

P.S.: I hope your method of determining sex is more functional in bars than it is here. (Or maybe it isn't, and that's why you're so 'testy' here. :^) It does show how easily you can be led not only to assume something you have no idea about, but to incorporate it into your arguments without a second thought. A little helpful wake-up call for you.

YoshiNakamura

Sheik Yusuf Qaradawi, perhaps the leading Islamic religious authority in the world today, said this about shariah finance:

Sheikh Yusuf al-Qaradawi, who told the BBC in 2006 that Shariah-Compliant Finance was nothing more than “Jihad with money:”

http://rainonlevs.livejournal.com/ KellyLogan

“Sheik Yusuf Qaradawi, perhaps the leading Islamic religious authority in the world today, ” according to who? I'll give you that he is one of the leading contributors of though to the Muslim Brotherhood, but why does that make him a viable authority to *you*?!?

Do you also want us to believe that Pokemon games are a Zionist plot because he said they were?

Seriously dude, check your sources and do some investigation to establish context before you just throw stuff out there that makes you look foolish.

M44

KellyLogan – thanks for your spirited exposition of the Muslim-as-victim narrative, Palestinian narrative, Islamophobia innuendi, apologies for Muslim aggression, juicy figures of speech and slanted descriptors (jump to the wild conclusion; disinformation; Kosher financial products; tear down…the freedom of religion; a beam in your eye, friend; rather dubious sources; Israel's brutal and blatantly criminal aggression; wild speculation; blind attacks on the Islamic community; attacking good people; not only immoral; self-destructive); taking for yourself the high moral ground; conflation of Islam religion with Islam ideology; classic demonization of Israel. This is not so much an argument based on reality as it is a snapshot of an impervious world-view.

You say: “It's time to stop wild speculation in this country and time to start doing the hard and dirty work of dealing with reality.”

Our friend wellwishrofall is reality enough. If folks who believe as he believes come to power in America you *will* have to deal with a hard reality, and from inside your burkha. Strange that ww seeks and predicts an Islam/sharia future for the world, including the punishment of infidels, and all you can say about it is that you can't support his *manner*. All I have done is to list some of the little steps being taken in that direction and you claim that it's all nonsense. Wellwish doesn't think it's nonsense. He knows where we're headed and I'm guessing that he much appreciates your help getting there.

Please consult original sources for information, primarily the words of authoritative Muslim leaders who hold power in the world; not so much your neighbors, who have been trained in how to talk to infidels (see http://www.dawanet.com and others) and who apparently have trained you. Check out http://www.aifdemocracy.org/ , which is the website of Zuhdi Jasser, a brave American Muslim who is well-informed and unafraid to comment on the many big and little steps that Jihad has already taken here in America.

http://rainonlevs.livejournal.com/ KellyLogan

I'm sorry M44, you just don't make a reasonable case. You want me to believe that my friends and neighbors, public Muslim figures, accepted Muslim scholars and experts, CIA analysts, reporters in the field and everyone that they talk to and report on are all either lying or fooled. Everyone that disagrees with you is absolutely wrong.

And the only ones we can trust are right-wing neo-cons who know the *real truth*, which just happens to also be the only 'truth' that supports their political agenda. I mean really, the AIFD? A front group pretending to represent a “group of Muslim professionals” that is actually one guy paid by the Republicans?
http://sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=American…

Some advice M44, when someone tells you that everyone else is lying and that they are the only, only ones that know the “real truth” – you're being conned. (In this case, Neo-Con-ned. ;^)

Your definitely on to something with Dawanet though; here's some passages I'll pass on to the readers here for you:

http://www.dawanet.com/volunteer/why.asp
“Why Volunteer? By Abdul Malik Mujahid

“As Muslims we seek Allah's pleasure by serving people. But this higher goal does not have to deny some benefits for ourselves from volunteering.

“Prophet Muhammad has said that a person who does not thank people is not thankful to Allah either. May Allah's blessings be upon him. Thanking people must go beyond words. The best way to be thankful is to help them in need.

“Muslims living in the non-Muslim society must not limit their volunteer time to their community run programs only. Today you may be the person with the ability to help, but tomorrow it may be you on the receiving end of a volunteer effort. In a society where “mind your business” is the coin of the day, there are millions of people who love to help others. By volunteering we contribute to an environment which can benefit all of us. “

Another excellent passage on living in a community of those different from you:

http://www.dawanet.com/neighbors/morethan.asp
“There may be times when Muslims find themselves without any other believers in their area, but this poses no excuse for not becoming invloved in the community. Attending neighborhood meetings and participating in neighborhood functions makes such a Muslim familiar with his neighbors and they may also come to know and respect him. Even with no other Muslims in the immediate area, the available believer still has much to offer his community in a leadership position. The ideals and values of Islam stress fairness and harmony among peoples living among each other. It would behoove a Muslim to share these traits with his community by assuming a local responsibility which may include youth mentoring, neighborhood watch involvement or organizing local events. The possibilities are indeed numerous, but it is the visibility and interaction that ultimately makes the difference.”

And some advice I would recommend to everyone here, that I took to heart long ago:

http://www.dawanet.com/women/BrosTalkingAboutWo…
“2. Be careful of mixing up the ideal with the reality

“One non-Muslim writer once remarked how when talking to Muslims about Islam compared to the West, Muslims take the ideal of Islam and compare it to the reality of the West.

“The fact of the matter is there are very ugly realities when it comes to the treatment of women in many parts of the world, including the Muslim world. Muslims must, for example, recognize the reality of domestic violence in the community, even though Islamic ideals would never condone such ugly behavior.

“3. Don't sacrifice speaking out against injustice in the name of protecting Islam's “image”

“Tackle the issue and the image will take care of itself,” advises Dr. Kathy Bullock, a convert to Islam based in California who has completed a PhD about Hijab from the University of Toronto. Don't fall into the tendency to ignore pressing issues for the sake of protecting Islam's reputation.

“In other words, if someone brings up the issue of honor killing in Jordan, for instance, acknowledge the reality but make it clear that this is a sin and a crime in Islam and as a Muslim you condemn it. This in itself is enough. Trying to justify or make excuses for it or covering it up is not going to score image points for Islam.”

MadDog1

Kelly, wrong again and again and again. If you weren't so hard headed and listened to the speakers that this article had to say you would understand my point of view. The speakers would include the Crusades and what prompted the western powers to figth back islamic jihad that had taken over Spain and attacked and pillaged all the southern European countries. The Crusades were a response for over a hunderd years of islamic jihad on europe way before any notion of a Crusade was brought to bear.

The evidence I would require that the majority of muslims are truly peaceful is if they took heart and protested all the violence that the extremists are perpetrating. However they can not really do that because they would be breaking their Koran by being against their muslims brothers. Also, it is forbidden to question the Koran and Mohammed about anything. You simply take it as it is.

Instead of taking to the streets in protest and violence about cartoons, teddy bears and a statement from the pope who said that muslims “used” to be violent only to prove just how violent they are by killing a couple of nuns. And those are only a few examples I can give. I reacken it would take several books to write down all the violence and crimes muslims have done in the name of Allah.

Your understanding of the bible is even weaker than your understanding of the Koran. The judeo-christian rule of law and governance is the precedent that our constitiion and bill of rights came from. If you say otherwise then there is truely no hope for you.

I stifle debate!?!? My initial comment was about this hotel stifling freedom of speech and freedom to assemble in peace. If anyone is stifling speech it's politically correct liberals who want to put every religion on a pedestal as though they are all the same, but it is simply not true.

For instance, I can stomach all the other religions, Roman Catholics, Hindu, Buddha, Judaism, Mormons, even Wiccans, but Islam is an entire beast all together.

http://rainonlevs.livejournal.com/ KellyLogan

Getting righteously indignant does little to show that you are interested in debate and discussion. When you actually support your ideas with facts and evidence instead of attacks and accusations, then we'll have some proof of that. Let's start with your answer to my question on why you have condemned all Muslims.

So by your measures, the majority of Americans are supporters of illegal wars of aggression, kidnapping, torture and murder, since a majority of *them* have not “taken heart and protested all the violence that the extremists are perpetratng.” For my part, I do not presume an entire population guilty and then require they *prove* their innocence; call me an American, but that's the way I judge things. In technical terms, this is called pre-judging, or prejudice. You will need more to make a convincing case against 1.5 billion Muslims than the actions of a few radicals, particularly in light of the demonstrated actions of the majority toward peace and working together, tenets of their faith.

As for your theory that “Judeo-Christian law of governance is the precedent that our Constitution and Bill of Rights came from,” let's explore that a bit. It sounds like you are trying to say that something about the Bible, in comparison to the Koran, has uniquely fostered our founding documents. Okay, show me where these unique connections are.

- Where is the “We the People” passage in the Bible that shows that it, like the Constitution, is “ordained and established” by the people and no higher authority?
- Where in the Bible does it guarantee the absolute right to everyone to worship the religion of their choice?
- Where in the Constitution or the Bill of Rights is the passage declaring that what a man asks to borrow be freely lent to him and no interest charged?
- Where in the Bible does it establish a system of checks and balances for divine authority?
- Where in the Bible does it establish that final authority of judgement be placed in an earthbound court?

Or maybe you're talking about some other critical and unique parts of our Constitution and Bill of Rights. Okay, show me those, show me the parts of the Bible that they are drawn from that have no similar passages in the Koran.

Or if you prefer, we can return to your original comment and you can show me the passages in the Koran that are “against everything the Constitution and Bill of Rights stand for”, which have no equivalents in the Bible.

YoshiNakamura

Who is Kelly Logan to question the authority of Sheik Yusuf Qaradawi in the Moslem world? He is perhaps the leading authority on Islam because he is recognized as such by many, many millions of Moslems. His books are on the recommended reading list of mosques. He runs an Islamic website which is one of the most popular in the Moslem world. He speaks everywhere, and millions of Moslems listen. He is THE leading spokesman for the Muslim Brotherhood.
Kelly, you should really stop making a fool of yourself. Just listen to what Islamic religious authorities are saying about Islam. Surely, they know more about Islam than you do.

http://rainonlevs.livejournal.com/ KellyLogan

Kelly Logan is someone who listens to the Islamic religious authorities, all of them, not just cherry-picked clips on conservative web-sites.

Yoshi, the more you accuse and attack others, the more you show how weak you think your argument is.

Instead of attacking me because I question the validity of three words with little context, why not show the entire interview so we can all see what he was really saying? Why not bring up other authorities who have made similar statements to show a consensus opinion? Why not show commentaries on the sheik's statement to show how it was received in the Muslim world?

I agreed that the man is one of THE leading spokespersons for the Muslim Brotherhood, which is a powerful political party, not THE guiding force of Islamic thought. That would be like saying Roberta Colmes, the leader of the Christian Coalition, is THE guiding force of Christian thought.

Unfortunately, if you make the case that the sheik speaks on behalf of the Muslim Brotherhood and that this indicates the ideas of radical terrorists inside the MB, then you undercut yourself even more: If Sharia financing is something that terrorists want, why would one of their supposed spokesmen link it publicly on a Western news show to “jihad”, which so many Westerners see as threatening? That would be like Bush saying, “The Iraqi Coalitional Authority is America's Crusade in the Middle East,” an unnecessary connection that anyone with a modicum of sense knows would make the ICA look threatening and hostile to Muslims.

And that's not even beginning to scratch the surface of the word “jihad,” which is so often misunderstood.

http://rainonlevs.livejournal.com/ KellyLogan

So, to sum up, the question is: Is a radical Christian funded lawsuit against AIG for offering Muslim-friendly financing a case of a frivilous lawsuit trying to enact religious persecution, or is it one of the first strike's by the Thomas More Law Center, Illitch's self-declared holy “Sword and Shield” of Christian faith, against the great, world-wide secret conspiracy that, according to the other commentors here, all Muslims are a part of?

Seriously guys, do they put the “Muslim” labels over the word “Communist” on all your books for you, or do you have to do it yourself? :^)
YoshiNakamura

Kelly Logan thinks she understands all about what 'Jihad” means. Here is what the Umdat al-Salik says about Jihad. The Undat al-Salik is the Classic Manual of Islamic Sacred Law approved by the highest Islamic religious authorities of Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Syria and Egypt (al Azhar university). See pages 599-603. Here are excerpts:
“Jihad means to war against non-Muslims, and is etymologically derived from the word mujahada, signifying warare to establish the religion….. The scriptural basis for jihad, prior to scholarly consensus is such Koranic verses as: (1) “Fighting is presecribed for you” (2:216); (2) “Slay them wherever you find them” (4:89); (3) “Fight the idolators utterly (9:36); and suich hadiths as … “I have been commanded to fight people until they testify that there is no god but Allah and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah…” “The Caliph makes war upon the Jews, Christians and Zoroastrians…. The Caliph fights all other peoples until they become Muslim…”

So, Kelly Logan, you can go argue with the highest Islamic religious authorities. You obviously know more about Islam than they do.

http://rainonlevs.livejournal.com/ KellyLogan

Much more informative, Yoshi, thank you. You give references that can be checked and judged on their merits, well done. It is unfortunate that you still think so little of your information that you feel it has to be bolstered with sarcasm.

M44

Dear Mr. Kelly Logan – yes, your gender is clearer now – your responses show no indication that you have actually looked at any of the original sources that have been handed to you; you dismiss them out of hand or you hurl a Christians-do-it-too response, tu-quoque. As much as you pretend to favor knowledgeable discussion, you are not holding up your side of it.

Your dismissal of Zuhdi Jasser, for instance, relies on a demonizing comment from sourcewatch.org, but you give no indication that you actually read anything that Mr. Jasser wrote. As sourcewatch says, he is unpopular among the American Muslim communiity – I told you that. I say he's brave for it, but sourcewatch ties him to the dreaded fra right to suggest that he's dismissible. Don't believe us. Read what he writes.

Sourcewatch says: “The conflation of al Qaeda, Hamas and Hezbollah is interesting, as two of them have nothing to do with the United States; their adversary is only Israel.” Aside from so what, this is wrong, in an essential way. I already noted that the leader of Hezbollah favors the extermination of ALL Jews. Now I urge you to visit

http://www.frontpagemag.com/readArticle.aspx?AR…

where you will find evidence – not opinion – that Hamas is indoctrinating Spanish Muslim children to obligate themselves to take back Spain from the infidels. This represents current activity in Islamic tradition, “waqf”: that any land that was ever under Islamic control must belong to Islam in perpetuity and that it is an Islamic obligation to work for it. The Hamas charter speaks openly about this. Short story, your anti-Jasser opinion-source, sourcewatch is ignorant, aside from dismissive on a purely ad-hominem basis. By relying on sourcewatch for opinion, rather than J
asser for original source material, you seriously undermine your statement that you strive for knowledgeable discussion.

BTW, I am also a Michigander. Last year I attended a presentation at an IONA mosque in your neighboring town, Warren. This presentation was advertised only to Muslims, but which I got wind of.

Reintroducing Islam to the west
Rebuttal of “Clash of Civilization”
By Aziz Fahmy Farag
The lecture will give new answers as to why the West considers Islam aggressive and how we can change this perception.

Mr. Farag presented a lot of false history. It was clear that the audience didn't know one way or the other, either history or tenets of Islam, the contents of the Koran, except for one (brave) guy, himself an Arab Muslim who tried to take the speaker to task for his omissions and falsifications, and so was shouted down by others in the audience most rudely. I spoke with him afterward and he said yeah, that happens a lot. All in all though, the folks were polite to me, obviously a kufr.

IONA, Islamic Organization of North America, expresses its mission “to promote and establish the Just Social Order of Islam.” – peacefully, they say, except for civil disobedience. So they say; but IONA is a descendant of Tanzeem e Islami, which is a Pakistani group that “advocates the establishment of an Islamic Caliphate in Pakistan and worldwide” [Wikipedia]

I tell you this anecdotal moment and background to give evidence (not opinion) to you that organizations exist here whose ultimate goal is to replace our way of life with the Caliphate, with sharia; that you won't generally hear this spoken openly; that in all likelihood, many members of the local Muslim communities, like we infidels, don't know it – that they reject & deny it when they hear it – that they don't know their own history, don't know what they are part of and what they are contributing to. There are other such organizations in America (fact), and other such unknowing adherents (IMO).

This is the larger picture; the AIG question is a small but important local element in this larger picture. The fates of Israel and Spain are also parts of this larger picture.

You promote the demonization of AIFD, perhaps the only organization – even if it is an organization of very few – that attempts to shine a light on this situation. Assuredly, AIFD is a minority Muslim opinion; that is not sufficient to dismiss it. Get down to details – what false information, evil philosophy comes out of this organization?

As an afterthought, no one in this discussion said “all Muslims” anything (except for you), and you only embarrass yourself when you respond as if they did: “…the great, world-wide secret conspiracy that, according to the other commenters here, all Muslims are a part of”. Sarcasm noted, straw-dog fallacy noted, ad-hominem fallacy noted; false statement that you favor knowledgeable discussion noted.

http://rainonlevs.livejournal.com/ KellyLogan

Thank you for that anecdote, it certainly shows that even when presented with a room of people actively working on building bridges and informing their community, your paranoia and indoctrination twists it into a room of secretly plotting evildoers “whose ultimate goal is to replace our way of life with the Caliphate.” You have made it clear that you only believe what neo-con sources tell you, and that no evidence is great enough to convince you otherwise. My apologies for wasting your time.

MadDog1

Ugh!!! I just lost a whole freaking page of rebuttal to your questions which I am not going to retype. Kelly you are more than capable to read and research in books and on the internet on islam. Here are a couple of websites:

http://www.actforamerica.org/
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

Also, the facts, evidence, and proof would have been provided but due to Loews hotel biased interferring with our American rights and privileges to freedom of speech and freedom to assemble by cancelling events such as those, it is why America is in trouble and we need to discuss and debate openly without restriction, within the law, and without violence.

Hosea, chapter 4
“6″: My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

http://rainonlevs.livejournal.com/ KellyLogan

Sorry to hear about losing your comments; I've had that happen to me as well and it sucks.

Thanks for the links. I had not seen those comments and actions by the judge on the Holy Land Foundation case; absolutely incredible.

Which events are these that were cancelled? What reasons did they give?

M44

Regarding the Loews Hotel farce – I am caught between regarding the hotel manager as a hero and as a wimp. He “canceled the event for the safety and health of guests and employees”.

In 2006 a similar event occurred when Borders and Waldenbooks refused to carry the edition of Free Inquiry magazine that displayed 4 of the Mohammed cartoons: “For us, the safety and security of our customers and employees is a top priority, and we believe that carrying this issue could challenge that priority,”

These cancelers admitted that they canceled out of fear of Islam – that's brave. That makes them Islamophobes of course, and confessed dhimmis, but at least they didn't lie by saying that they acted out of respect for Islam. What a strange reversal, and it follows that someone who recognizes dangers emanating from Islamic threats and actions but who is unafraid to proceed, is then *not* an Islamophobe.

America will see more of this behavior. It is important to admit why in this free country we are throwing away our freedoms. We might be grateful for these cases where they tell the truth – they are breaking ice here, and I wouldn't be too quick to condemn them for their dhimmi decision.
M44

KellyLogan sez:
Thank you for that anecdote, it certainly shows that even when presented with a room of people actively working on building bridges and informing their community, your paranoia and indoctrination twists it into a room of secretly plotting evildoers “whose ultimate goal is to replace our way of life with the Caliphate.” You have made it clear that you only believe what neo-con sources tell you, and that no evidence is great enough to convince you otherwise. My apologies for wasting your time.

======================

Incredible. Remember, the meeting was advertised only to Muslims, to learn what to say to infidels, not to tell the truth; one person who tried to tell the truth was shouted down; the mission of the organization was laid before you. Your response: zero understanding, pure character assassination.

I have had much better conversations with my Muslim colleagues and members of the MSA. Life is full of surprises. Your pile-o-cheese excepted.

http://rainonlevs.livejournal.com/ KellyLogan

As I said M44, you do not make a decent case for your conclusions, and your comments are peppered with disturbing issues:
- You present a source like http://www.dawanet.com as an example of some kind of secret, hidden way that Muslims are taught how to fool 'infidels', to support your demand that I cannot trust any of the friends and neighbors I have, and that any of *my* experience is therefore tainted and suspect.
- You present a source like FrontPage, David Horowitz's politically-funded website that, like Mr. Horowitz himself, constantly makes outrageous, unsupported claims like college Muslim associations being “arms of the Muslim Brotherhood” (FOX 5/9/08), or when he demanded in Santa Barbara that the students who wore green to support the student Muslim association also support Hamas and that any student wearing a headscarf was doing so to honor Yassir Arafat and terrorism (http://www.independent.com/news/2008/may/15/dav…). Presenting a source like this makes it seem likely that your methods of judgement will be similarly filled with wild jumps to conclusions, baseles accusations and demands that only your conclusions can possibly be valid.
- You present a source like AIFD, which you describe as being “the only organization…that attempts to shine a light on this situation,” when on AIFD's site itself shows Dr. Jasser's opinions being broadcast worldwide on top-rated networkss on FOX News and CNN, as well as on major conservative radio shows like Mancow, and Mike Rosen. This casts doubt on your ability to discern your source's place in the general media picture, and on your methods of judging the veracity of your sources. In addition, the attempt to make a well-funded, politically-connected and widely broadcast source appear to be a struggling, independent voice is a standard tactic of conservative spin called astroturfing; in my experience it is used by radical right-wingers, much like emotional appeals and aggressive ad hominems, to add support to shaky arguments.
- As an aside, it's also a bit odd that you would feel the need to declare yourself as a Michigander, and then proceed to talk about my “neighboring town” of Warren, which any Metro Detroiter would know is nowhere near Dearborn, in geography or culture. You might as well talk about my 'neighboring towns' of Livonia or Ypsilanti.

In contrast, I rate higher in validity those who have multiple, diverse sources, those who demonstrate a thought process that moves from evidence to conclusion and not the reverse, those who have an objective and consistent set of measures for their judgements, and who take into account historical and present contexts for their information.

As I indicated earlier, you are not the first right-wing radical to demand that there is an “Evil Empire” that is secretly plotting to destroy civilization. The reason that you're fighting an uphill battle is that we've heard it all before: 'They' (Communists, Jews, Gays, Gypsies… etc) are plotting against you, they have secret meetings, they hate who you are and want to make you like them, they won't stop until they take over the world…, etc. And these great conspiracies can only be fought by giving absolute power to the 'privileged' few who know how to take care of things. We have to take away people's rights (just for a while), we have to push money into the industries that make the 'privileged' money and take it out of infrastructure, we have to segregate and divide the country into the 'loyal' and the 'suspect' and the 'suspects' have to *prove* their innocence and loyalty…, etc.

Maybe you're right, maybe this time Rumfeld's magic silent submarine exists, maybe this time the Communists are secretly hiding all around us, maybe this time the Gays really do have a hidden agenda to make us all gay, maybe this time the Jews are controlling the banks to take dominion of the world, and maybe this time the only ones who know the truth are the rich,white war profiteers and their well-paid mouthpieces.

It just isn't the best explanation for the facts.

http://rainonlevs.livejournal.com/ KellyLogan

And just a reminder to the audience, what we're talking about is a Christian man, backed by a radical Christian group that call themselves the “sword and shield for people of faith,” attacking AIG because it has Muslim-friendly products as part of its complete offering to its customers and that this will somehow lead to Sharia law taking over the company.

Isn't it odd that these kinds of right-wing lawsuits, funded by millionaires like Illitch, (that further their political profit goals) that demand redress for what 'could' happen, maybe someday, are never referred to the anti-lawyer types as “frivolous”?

Why is it only lawsuits filed by regular people who have been injured by things that *have* happened (and that *take* money from millionaires like Illitch) are referred to as “frivolous”?
http://rainonlevs.livejournal.com/ KellyLogan

Oh no! The ad to on the page is for a Muslim dating agency! Guys you better get on this too, or before you know it, all dating agencies will force us to only date Muslims! :^)
http://rainonlevs.livejournal.com/ KellyLogan

Oh no! The ad to on the page is for a Muslim dating agency! Guys you better get on this too, or before you know it, all dating agencies will force us to only date Muslims! :^)
http://rainonlevs.livejournal.com/ KellyLogan

Oh no! The ad to on the page is for a Muslim dating agency! Guys you better get on this too, or before you know it, all dating agencies will force us to only date Muslims! :^)

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