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The Michigan Messenger going forward

By Staff Report | 11.16.11

I am writing today to announce the closure of the Michigan Messenger. After four years of operation in Michigan, the board of the American Independent News Network, has decided to shift publication of its news into a single site, The American Independent at Americanindependent.com. This is part of a shift in strategy, towards new forms [...]

Colorado-based abstinence program provided false and misleading information to Michigan students

HIV-AIDS-small
By Todd A. Heywood | 11.16.11

An abstinence-only presentation provided to numerous school districts in Calhoun and Eaton Counties in October of this year provided false and misleading information to students about HIV, experts allege.

Class action lawsuit filed against MERS over unpaid taxes

foreclosure
By Todd A. Heywood | 11.15.11

Two county registers of deeds filed a class action lawsuit Monday on behalf of Michigan’s 83 counties alleging that the Mortgage Electronic Registration Services owes millions of dollars in property title transfer taxes.

Schuette fights important mercury regulations

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By Eartha Jane Melzer | 11.14.11

Despite evidence of the impact of mercury on children and public health, Michigan Attorney General Bill Schuette last month joined with 24 other state attorneys general in filing a lawsuit to scuttle new EPA regulations that would reduce mercury emissions from power plants.

Court says no First Amendment violation in church aid case

By Ed Brayton | 05.28.09 | 11:02 am

The U.S. Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals ruled (PDF) that the city of Detroit did not violate the establishment clause of the First Amendment by giving more than $700,000 to several churches downtown to reimburse them for exterior renovations prior to the city’s hosting of the Super Bowl and the NCAA Final Four.

The case, brought by American Atheists Inc. and Americans United for Separation of Church and State against the Detroit Downtown Development Authority, stems from a program to beautify downtown Detroit in the last few years as the city prepared to host major sporting events.

Wanting the city to look its best for the hundreds of thousands of visitors and millions of television viewers, the city launched a program to help building owners in the vicinity of Ford Field and Comerica Park complete renovations to their exteriors to project a better image to the public. The program reimbursed owners up to 50 percent of the cost of such renovations.

But in the areas designated for this project were several churches, three of which took advantage of the program as well. Of the more than $11 million allocated to reimburse building owners for the cleanup project, about 6 percent, or $737,000, went to three churches in downtown Detroit.

The plaintiffs challenged this transfer of tax dollars to churches as a violation of the First Amendment. The U.S. District Court rejected that challenge and the appeals court has now upheld that ruling, concluding:

Everyone agrees that the program allocates benefits to a broad spectrum of entities on a neutral basis, as the City awards grants without regard to the religious, non-religious or areligious nature of the entity. The facial neutrality of the program, everyone also agrees, does not mask an intent to advance religion: Detroit sought to fix up its downtown, not to establish a religion. And as will generally be the case when a governmental program allocates generally available benefits on a neutral basis and without a hidden agenda, this program does not have the impermissible effect of advancing religion in general or any one faith in particular. By endorsing all qualifying applicants, the program has endorsed none of them, and accordingly it has not run afoul of the federal or state religion clauses.

The court applied what is known as the Lemon test to determine whether this program violates the establishment clause of the First Amendment. The three-prong test requires that a government action must have a secular purpose, must not have the primary effect of advancing religion and must not lead to excessive entanglement between church and state. The court ruled that the cleanup project violated none of those three prongs.

As a general rule, while the government cannot directly give taxpayer funds to a church or religious entity, a government benefit that is generally available to the public is also available to churches on equal footing with non-religious entities. For example, the government could not fund security services specifically for a church, but the police and fire departments will still respond to a church just as it would to a business or residence in cases of emergency.

Editor’s Note: The author of this post knows Richard Katskee, one of the attorneys representing the plaintiffs in this case. They were both involved in a more successful establishment clause case in federal court in 2005, Kitzmiller v Dover Area School District.

Clarification: This case was not, as stated above, brought by Americans United for Separation of Church and State. Americans United filed an amicus brief in the case on behalf of a number of religious organizations, including the Baptist Joint Committee for Religious Liberty and the American Jewish Committee. The group was then asked by American Atheists to present an oral argument before the court along with their own argument. Likewise, the federal government did an oral argument in support of the defendants and another Christian law firm, the Alliance Defense Fund, did the actual oral argument on behalf of the city. A very unusual situation. Thanks to Richard Katskee of Americans United for clarifying the situation and we apologize for the error.

Comments

  • Fizzmick_paChee

    Scary decision that should be reversed. The religious organizations should reimburse the city and should not be tax exempt any more.

    Thankfully Darwin's discovery of evolution completely rules out the possibility that man came from some dirt that a god used to make an image of himself out of, and that woman came from a rib of this dirt-man.

    Compare the amount of interlocking data from every applicable scientific field including geology, physics, and even molecular biology, all having observational experiments done, that test and prove the hypotheses of evolution occurring, with the DISCREDITED FAIRY TALE – a big invisible monster that nobody has ever seen or heard did it.

    It is frightening that mass delusions of supernatural beings still exist today. It is the same thing as saying that my invisible fire breathing dragon is more powerful than your multi-headed fire spewing sea monster. So, come around to my way of thinking or I will commit atrocities for it.

    Everything from the murderous blood stained Sky Daddy who drowned virtually all humanity and other life, sentenced everyone to leave Utopia after Eve (persuaded by a talking snake) ate a magical apple, had Jonah take a ride in the belly of a whale, ruined the life of Job, told Abraham to murder his own kid, killed all the first born of Egypt, had his chosen people commit genocide on the original inhabitants of Palestine, to letting his own son be nailed to some wood so mankind could party with a ghost – is a FAIRY TALE that humanity needs to reject if we are to see many more generations.

    By the way if you are dumb enough to believe that this fable is real; in the Bible, the murder count is God/millions – Devil/zero. Whom would you rather spend time with, a vengeful monster or a “fallen” angel who thought he had a better way? I am NOT promoting the Devil, just illustrating the craziness in this stupidity.

    Hopefully if you were previously deluded, after reading this you will see how foolish you have been. Society needs to accelerate its retreat from worshiping outlandishly absurd fictional psychopathic beings.

    There is no middle ground.

    • http://rainonlevs.livejournal.com/ KellyLogan

      It is a fine thing to be an athiest Fizz, but attacking someone else's beliefs is never a good way to promote your own. (Another hint, don't bring up Darwin, a deeply religious man, to support your theory that there can be “no middle ground” between science and religion. ;^)

      • Fizzmick_paChee

        How do you promote Atheism without illustrating the foolishness of religion?

        Darwin sought out evolution to disprove the bible. Either you are lying or repeating one. Darwin was an ATHEIST.

        I can and will supply links to documentation. Can you?

        P.S. (hint, sarcasm here) Thanks for the advice.

        • http://rainonlevs.livejournal.com/ KellyLogan

          Sarcasm aside, you ask an excellent question: How can one promote Atheism without presenting religion in a foolish light?

          It starts by making a commitment to understanding both Atheism and the religions that you wish to compare it to. For example, just as there are many types of religions, there are many sets of beliefs or schools of thought that would be labeled “Atheist”. My brand of Atheism may be completely different from yours, so it's important to first establish what you mean by Atheism, most likely by finding a more descriptive label.

          As Mr_Fury pointed out, Buddhists in general do not believe in gods, which has means that they are often classified as athiests as well. Plenty of atheists are spiritual and not believing in deities does not mean you believe in science and logic as the one and only truth.

          In general, if you start with the assumption that anything a diverse group of people have believed in for generations is foolish and useless, you will make talking with them more difficult for yourself. The first thing to consider is that anything that people believe in with any consistency most likely provides something useful and functional to their lives. Unless your brand of atheism can provide this same usefulness and functionality, no matter how 'logical' it is, it could itself be seen as foolish or even hostile.

          Another useful thing to consider is that logic and reason are just another set of tools used by a person to try and understand and predict their world. Taking the time to understand and accept the inherent limitations of science and technology will also allow you to make a stronger and more robust case for them.

          • Fizzmick_paChee

            There is so much garbage in your letter I don't even know where to begin. So why don' t you read my posts here including the one with a link to Christian Answers. There are many other sites on Darwin.

            I am also posting a post by nemoanimum from above.

            Sadly you are demonstrating your ignorance of how scintific research is performed.

            The data from scientific research is INDEPENDENTLY and REPEATEDLY VERIFIED. Research is performed by many individuals, to reduce the possibility of bias (intentional or unintentional). The previous commenter doesn't have BLIND faith in a “book” (as you put it), but rather understands the methodology of the scientific method-that claims are not accepted on faith, but require rigorous proof. I performed some research in HIGH SCHOOL…see-even when a high school student repeats an experiment others have done, they are contributing to the verifiability of a claim.

            Contrast that with the definition of faith-believing without evidience. They are polar opposites, and why one can never reconcile faith and science.

            And yes, I'll say any adult who believes in imaginary friends is stupid, regardless of what stats say. Because in my mind claiming something is absolutely true without research to show why it's true is stupid.

          • http://rainonlevs.livejournal.com/ KellyLogan

            Ah. Well, if there is nothing to discuss, then thank you for sharing your opinion and I'll wish you well.

          • Fizzmick_paChee
          • Fizzmick_paChee

            If you believe in a rock, a tree, the sun, or any god it will 'work' for you. The magic is in your mind. The problem is that you could do BETTER without false beliefs. With open eyes you are also safer than believing god will protect you, because you are more careful.

            Wear seat belts or pray. Atheism is growing and will win by natural selection.

  • Fizzmick_paChee

    Kelly,

    Either you are lying or repeating one. Darwin was an ATHEIST.

    I can and will supply links to documentation. Can you?

    • CRShelton

      Darwin was not an Athiest, and I will provide some documentation.

      He stated so himself in private correspondence:

      “I have never been an atheist in the sense of denying the existence of a God.”

      I don't think he could be much clearer than that. Further research of his private letters and diaries (He did not like to talk about religion in the public arena) will show you that he did believe in a God, he just didn't believe in the historical accuracy of the Bible, and was skeptical that any of the major religions had identified the true nature of God.

      A good place to start your research is at the Darwin Correspondence Project. Here is a link to their site, that will show you the full transcript of the letter that I quoted above: http://www.darwinproject.ac.uk/darwinletters/ca…

    • Aucald

      Darwin was neither an Athiest nor overly religious… by his own admission, as ascertained from his autobiography and published letters.

      Darwin states: “[My] judgment often fluctuates…. Whether a man deserves to be called a theist depends on the definition of the term … In my most extreme fluctuations I have never been an atheist in the sense of denying the existence of a God. — I think that generally (and more and more so as I grow older), but not always, — that an agnostic would be the most correct description of my state of mind.” – Letter to John Fordyce, 1879

      So the boldest thing one could say about Darwin was that he unsure about his beliefs. He also states that he felt religion had no place in science… which should be taken in both the positive and negative senses (religion cannot dictate the structure of science and science cannot inform the beliefs of religion). Reconciling science and religion is the human responsibility… and how you go about doing that is a primary indicator of what kind of person you truly are.

    • http://rainonlevs.livejournal.com/ KellyLogan

      Sorry I wasn't back sooner to reply to you Fizz, but I see that Aucald and CRShelton did so for me. (Thank you both for the useful and informative replies! :^)

      Noone likes being called a liar, of course, so I won't return your accusation, but I do think it's worth noting that you have not provided the documentation supporting your strong declaration of Darwin's atheism.

  • FapFapFap

    The Church's should return the money. If they don't time to start taxing and regulating.

  • Fizzmick_paChee

    Charles Darwin was bombarded with religious dogma repeatedly through his formative years. At one time he was very religious. Then with knowledge and common sense he THOROUGHLY REJECTED god.

    Christian Answers,(a religious not atheist site) is but one of hundreds if not thousands of web pages that debunks this lie.

    It starts: Editors note: Many people are under the impression that Charles Darwin, the most well known promoter of evolutionism, died a Christian and renounced his theory. This is mainly due to rumors surrounding his death, and the fact that he studied at seminary as a young man and is buried in Westminster Abbey. This article reveals the truth.

    Later on it talks of this letter you quote from his early years which he describes as confused by the contradiction between evidence and religion. The article further states: Charles Darwin's thinking and writing on the subject of evolution and natural selection caused him to reject the evidence for God in nature and ultimately to renounce the Bible, God, and the Christian faith.

    This is another letter: “Formerly I was led… to the firm conviction of the existence of God and the immortality of the soul. In my Journal I wrote that whilst standing in the midst of the grandeur of a Brazilian forest, 'it is not possible to give an adequate idea of the higher feelings of wonder, admiration, and devotion, which fill and elevate the mind.' I well remember my conviction that there is more in man than the mere breath of his body. But now the grandest scenes would not cause any such convictions and feelings to rise in my mind.”

    All you have to do is remove the word formerly and, VOILA meaning changed. Neat trick.. Totally dishonest and a pathetic attempt to mislead.

    See Christian Answers http://www.christiananswers.net/q-aig/darwin.html

    Also stop misrepresenting or taking out of context information that is so widely known that only someone with a deceptive agenda would employ. A lie repeated a million times is still a lie. And while the more you say it the more you may believe; ultimately to the perceptive -you come across really dishonest.

    Thank you for giving me the opportunity to display your true nature.

    • Mr_Fury

      Mr. Fizzmick…. I'm not trying to attack you, but I just wonder.

      Why are you so strong in your case against Christianity, if not religion in itself?

      I mean, I can understand a person who is so “in love with God” wanting to spread the word, but I don't quite understand your mind set.

      I ask respectfully.

    • http://rainonlevs.livejournal.com/ KellyLogan

      Thank you for posting your thoughts on this, Fizz, but I see no evidence here or at that site or at any of the others I looked through to convince me that Charles Darwin “THOROUGHLY REJECTED God” as you suggest. It does appear that he was more religious in the early part of his life, and less religious towards the end, but this is hardly unique. People often lose faith in any number of things towards the ends of their lives.

      If, on the other hand, Darwin had presented his work on the “Origin of the Species” as a clear proof and statement of his rejection of Christianity, that would have been a demonstration of your opinion. He did not. The most I see concensus support for is the declaration that he became an agnostic in late life. I'm sure there are plenty of scientists who denounced religion that you could use as good examples, but Charles Darwin simply isn't one of them.

  • Mr_Fury

    Sorry fappy, but that's a no-go. If the courts of this land decide that it's alright for them to have the money, they get the money.

    • Fizzmick_paChee

      Not so fast. If laws are rewritten and the courts agree -religion CAN be taxed. The ball is already rolling and picking up steam every day.

      Society needs to accelerate its retreat from worshiping outlandishly absurd fictional psychopathic beings. When you tax something you get less of it. Thankfully the times they are a changin.

      • Mr_Fury

        The ball may be rolling, but is it rolling in the right direction and not a totally random one that benefits no group?

        Most churches participate in the local community– food drives, clothing drives, fundraising to help the needy– yes, there is the occassional church or religious group that doesn't do any of this or even discourages this.

        But here, majority rules. And many Americans are religious, although they may not be extremely devout, and they may even just call themselves Christian or Hindu or Islamic.

        And, if certain groups say the right words to those people that make it seem like their freedom of religion is being threaten, then those people will most likely do what they can to prevent said tax exempt removal from passing.

  • Fizzmick_paChee

    Mr. Fury writes in part: “Mr. Fizzmick…. I'm not trying to attack you, but I just wonder.

    Why are you so strong in your case against Christianity, if not religion in itself?”

    *****Religion is a major problem that needs to be addressed because it is religion which not only makes faith a virtue (which it is not), but makes it the greatest virtue, to which all others – truth, knowledge, love – must be sacrificed in the dogmatic imposition of faith.

    One of the worst things about religion is its embrace of the concept that we are all sinners; saying it’s okay with god if you’ve committed the most heinous of crimes as long as you truly repent -Jesus or some other deity will save you.

    I can’t think of a better recipe for disastrous human behavior. If eternity in heaven awaits, what’s fifty years in jail?

    Society needs to accelerate its retreat from worshiping outlandishly absurd fictional psychopathic beings.

    • Itstoearly

      I think you deeply misunderstand Christianity. While it is true that true repentance (and I'm not sure you understand true repentance instead of apologizing) brings forgiveness through Christ, those who are truly Christians love God to the point of trying quite hard to be good out of sheer gratitude for salvation. I fail to see how this is morally inferior to atheism, where moral values are relative, and there are no eternal consequences.
      People who say “I am going to go commit a crime, and then just repent, and then I'm cool with God” are likely not Christians, despite what they may say.
      As far as religion ruining the world… I suggest you look at where the majority of charity in the world comes from (hint: it's not an atheist organization).
      Cheers!

  • Mr_Fury

    Mr. Fizzmick, I'm sorry, but, I believe you made a small error.

    You say that religion makes faith “the greatest virtue” and all others disposable. This could be considered true with Christianity, perhaps even Judaism and Islam, but no way in Buddhism.

    In fact, Buddhism encourages truth, knowledge, and love through it's “Eightfold Path”, and if faith is a virtue within the religion, it would having faith in yourself to complete the Eightfold Path.

    Respectfully yours.

    • Fizzmick_paChee

      No error. You just refuse to connect the easily labeled dots. I'll help you.

      While Buddhism is much less malignant than most other religions, you have to have faith to believe in Buddha – their god. See?

      • Mr_Fury

        I'm sorry, but you must be using a different connect-the-dots coloring page than me.

        Buddhism does not have a god. There HAS been speculation that there is a god in Buddhism, but there is no higher being as Judaism, etc. has.

        Gautama Buddha, or Siddhārtha Gautama, was the founder of Buddhism and was thought the first person to obtain the state of Buddha, or “enlightenment”, which is achieved through one's own initiative.

        With respect, the ball is in your court.

        • Fizzmick_paChee

          The Mahayana Vimalakirti Sutra claims, in Chapter 3, that the Buddha doesn't really become ill or old but purposely presents such an appearance only to teach those born into samsara about the impermanence and pain of defiled worlds and to encourage them to strive for Nirvana.

          To believe this one would have to have faith in the supernatural. Read the above. HE DOESN'T REALLY BECOME ILL OR OLD JUST PRESENTS THIS APPEARANCE. To believe this requires a suspension of common sense and knowledge hence -FAITH. See? Or are you blinded by faith?

          To accomplish this he would have to be a god.

          Do you have the right page now?

          • Mr_Fury

            Am I blinded by faith, or are you blinded by ignorance?

            As you said, “The Mahayana Vimalakirti Sutra claims, in Chapter 3, that the Buddha doesn't really become ill or old but purposely presents such an appearance only to teach those born into samsara about THE IMPERMANENCE AND PAIN OF DEFILED WORLDS AND TO ENCOURAGE THEM TO STRIVE FOR NIRVANA.”

            However, the Buddha clearly tries to teach people born into samsara to do good things to improve themselves to Nirvana.

            You said earlier “Religion is a major problem that needs to be addressed because it is religion which not only makes faith a virtue (which it is not), but makes it the greatest virtue, to which all others – truth, knowledge, love – must be sacrificed in the dogmatic imposition of faith.”
            Buddhism may make faith a virtue, (and I admit faith is not officially recognize as a virtue, but that depends on who you ask) but it also enforces deeply compassion, love, knowledge, and truth.

            Sorry, but my page has more of a picture of a dog. :/

          • Fizzmick_paChee

            Not really. You just claim it does

          • Mr_Fury

            In the end, isn't that we all really have? A claim?

            A claim that the life we chose was right,
            a claim that that our own beliefs are right,
            a claim that there is a god,
            a claim that there is no god,
            a claim that all the gods are drug addicts….

            It's obvious your claim is that there's no such things as gods and that religion is the fallacy of man.

            My claim is that there is a God, and that He made everything.

            We can debate and debate until the rooster crows at morning, but we're still just be running and running in circles!

            Odds are, nothing I will say change your perspective. Odds are, nothing you say will change my perspective.

            Yes, you can say this is last ditch attempt of a failing argument. But what I know –what I claim– is that these are the truths of both arguments.

            We are both right and we are both wrong.

            The only way to see who is truly right, or not see who is truly right in the other case, is in the true end.

            It has been a pleasure arguing against you, Mr. Fizzmick. You have tested my will and I believe (claim) that I am a better person because of it. I hope you had the same experience as well.

            Have a good day, and hopefully we'll meet again, greater adversary.

            ——-Mr. Fury——–
            As a final note… not as an attack on you, or anything at all, I promise….

            -My 46 year old father died less than a month ago and his ashes are in the next room. Although I have always believe, and will continue to believe in God and the gospel, this belief has grown even stronger. Without my faith and belief, then all that would be in the next room is a pile of ashes.

            Have a good, great evening, and pleasant life, Mr. Fizzwick.

          • Fizzmick_paChee

            Mr Fury,

            Unfortunately through the lies told to support the god delusion, many people have too much emotionally invested in the concept of immortality to objectively evaluate what else is pinned to it. Nothing less than immortality could get so many people to rationalize so irrationally in the face of the overwhelming evidence we now possess against the belief in gods.

            I extend my condolences to you on the loss of your father. Just so you know, there is tremendously more hope (gigantic to infinitesimal) for your father (and the rest of us) through mankind than any god. For the record, I too would like pleasurable immortality. If you are myopic (near sighted) try prayer or an optometrist to improve your vision. See which works better. I have great hope (and some faith, but not overly optimistic) that mankind will advance to where we can travel back in time and save people, bringing them forward to what is the then present. Should we acquire this ability our lives may very well be reviewed to see if we are worthy. The evil and those who promoted superstitious lies that go against all logic and evidence, may not be deemed so.

            The safer, smarter, better choice is through reality – not specious lies.

            Good luck and happiness to you Mr. Fury, —Fizzmick PaChee

  • miss_babby_gurl

    i think mr fury, you rock, yes i know you literally, in real life but i also fully 100% agree with you (thats like a first) but anyways, mr fury you rock and i totally agree with you!!!!

  • olson93

    fizz i agree with you about that society is making faith into the greatest virtue nowadays and it is a sad day when faith trumps logic, i know people that will just say well it is my faith, in today's society it is created that if something is your faith you have to back off and cannot attack them, also in Buddhism as in any religion there is some amount of faith to believe it in the first place.

    • http://rainonlevs.livejournal.com/ KellyLogan

      I think it is important to discern between faith and a belief in a god or gods, which is what atheism denies. One does not have to believe in a god to have faith in something.

      For example, science declares that the charge on an electron is constant and that it is 1.60217646 × 10^-19 coulombs. Do you accept this? If so, have you measured a majority of the electrons that you have encountered, or do you take this scientific declaration on 'faith'? :^)

  • ajwilliamson

    and churches, which pay zero taxes, should get government grants? I think they get enough already.

  • joeecm427

    “Compare the amount of interlocking data from every applicable scientific field including geology, physics, and even molecular biology, all having observational experiments done, that test and prove the hypotheses of evolution occurring, with the DISCREDITED FAIRY TALE – a big invisible monster that nobody has ever seen or heard did it.”

    Have you ever performed any of these molecular tests to “confirm” your beliefs in Darwin's Theories? If you have not, I would say it you have proven your own foolishness by calling out religious groups for their belief in a book, when you put your belief in a book as well. Seems as though I have met a few people who are ridiculously intelligent who are religious (only about 85% of americans); and you're saying they are all stupid? Seems like you didn't learn much about probability in statistics class…

  • Aucald

    One thing I have always found interesting is that fundamental atheists seem to have a difficult time seeing how similar to fundamental religious-types they are. One group happily discredits an entire discipline based on the fact that it does not dovetail nicely with their beliefs… and the other attempts to use purely physical laws, theories, and hypotheses to invalidate a branch of human experience which has no readily observable physical components.

    Logic is only as good as a tool as the data you have on hand on which to apply it… and faith is only applicable outside the realm of the physical governed by our understanding of scientific findings. Anyone who believes that our admittedly meager grasp of the universe answers all the questions of the invisible world of human thought, dreams, and ideas strikes me just as silly as someone who literally believes a long-bearded gent dressed in a white robe dredged our species up from clay.

    • http://rainonlevs.livejournal.com/ KellyLogan

      I think you make a good point about the narrow-minded Aucald, they can be difficult in any genre. I do think however that logic should only be used in a context of science, not of religion. Religion is navigated through faith and connections to truths outside of tangible experience, through 'experiments' that are each unique and irreproducible; logic is not a useful tool in these circumstances.

      I think right now that it is difficult for many people to acknowledge religious truths because science and reason have such a stranglehold on society right now, much as theocracy did several centuries back. Truth is only arrived at through scientific 'proof', leaving those with truths arrived at through other means little recourse other than to try and tie those truths to religious dogma that must be accepted.

      I think our next evolution will be to reconcile the disparities of science and belief to foster authorities that both can recognize and use in their lives.

  • nemoanimum

    Sadly you are demonstrating your ignorance of how scintific research is performed.

    The data from scientific research is INDEPENDENTLY and REPEATEDLY VERIFIED. Research is performed by many individuals, to reduce the possibility of bias (intentional or unintentional). The previous commenter doesn't have BLIND faith in a “book” (as you put it), but rather understands the methodology of the scientific method-that claims are not accepted on faith, but require rigorous proof. I performed some research in HIGH SCHOOL…see-even when a high school student repeats an experiment others have done, they are contributing to the verifiability of a claim.

    Contrast that with the definition of faith-believing without evidience. They are polar opposites, and why one can never reconcile faith and science.

    And yes, I'll say any adult who believes in imaginary friends is stupid, regardless of what stats say. Because in my mind claiming something is absolutely true without research to show why it's true is stupid.

    • Aucald

      Sadly, I am not demonstrating ignorance of how “scientific” research is performed… because the performance of scientific research is irrelevant to what I am saying. Data from scientific research is indeed independently and repeatedly verified… there is certainly no disputing that. And that data and subsequent proof is based on wholly physical experiments with tangible quantities or materials. I would not have blind faith in the existence of a book as a physical object in space, this much is true… but I may doubt the veracity or disagree with the opinions that the *content* of the book presents.

  • http://rainonlevs.livejournal.com/ KellyLogan

    Ah. Well, if there is nothing to discuss, then thank you for sharing your opinion and I'll wish you well.

  • Fizzmick_paChee
  • Fizzmick_paChee

    If you believe in a rock, a tree, the sun, or any god it will 'work' for you. The magic is in your mind. The problem is that you could do BETTER without false beliefs. With open eyes you are also safer than believing god will protect you, because you are more careful.

    Wear seat belts or pray. Atheism is growing and will win by natural selection.

  • http://rainonlevs.livejournal.com/ KellyLogan

    Ah. Well, if there is nothing to discuss, then thank you for sharing your opinion and I'll wish you well.

  • Fizzmick_paChee
  • Fizzmick_paChee

    If you believe in a rock, a tree, the sun, or any god it will 'work' for you. The magic is in your mind. The problem is that you could do BETTER without false beliefs. With open eyes you are also safer than believing god will protect you, because you are more careful.

    Wear seat belts or pray. Atheism is growing and will win by natural selection.